My 9/11 concerns

[falafel]

Whatever. I'm not trolling on this board. I have VERY strange beliefs, I admit that. Just look at my posts in the religion section. I came to this board because I found a lot of people in the religious section who were going through the same stuff I was, namely: they don't buy most of what is taught or done in the LDS church anymore, but don't feel any real reason to leave. But I have weird views in areas other than religion and I arrived at those views because I have been willing to keep my mind open to many possibilities. On the one hand it frustrates people because I can be persuaded into things that to them sounds crazy, on the other hand people have found that I am one of the few people they know that if I find I'm wrong I can admit it. I'm not stubborn in any of my views, if I was I wouldn't HAVE my views. So when I come on here and say, "I'm your humble pupil" I'm one of few people who probably mean it. I don't claim to know everything. I do claim to have an open mind, but I DON'T appreciate name calling or condescension and even though I can brush it off with and taking little shots at myself to fend off the wolves for a little while, I can't keep it up forever. Sometimes I need SOMEBODY to jump in and simply say "give the kid a break, he's trying."

We're trying to give you a break. So let's start over TKD. Start a new thread and lay out the evidence that you find most persuasive.

[BigFatMeanie]

No, the problem is you are trying to tell me what my problem is rather than hearing what I'm saying my problem is. I came into this conversation without ANY passion or vigor and a very open mind, I can't take on everybody attacking me at once, calling me disingenuous and a liar, crazy, nutjob looking for black helicopters and expect to have any kind of rationality remain with me. It just isn't reasonable to expect that from me.

If you guys want to straighten me out, pm me. The forum won't be changing my mind today.

[Pheidippides]

Yeah, but trolls like to keep the thread going. That's part of the fun. Now TKD has shut this thread down, which runs contrary to the goal of a troll.

Agreed. TKD is not a troll. He's a kid in a room full of adults, figuratively speaking. Kids can grow up fast, though.

[creekster]

Whatever. I'm not trolling on this board. I have VERY strange beliefs, I admit that. Just look at my posts in the religion section. I came to this board because I found a lot of people in the religious section who were going through the same stuff I was, namely: they don't buy most of what is taught or done in the LDS church anymore, but don't feel any real reason to leave. But I have weird views in areas other than religion and I arrived at those views because I have been willing to keep my mind open to many possibilities. On the one hand it frustrates people because I can be persuaded into things that to them sounds crazy, on the other hand people have found that I am one of the few people they know that if I find I'm wrong I can admit it. I'm not stubborn in any of my views, if I was I wouldn't HAVE my views. So when I come on here and say, "I'm your humble pupil" I'm one of few people who probably mean it. I don't claim to know everything. I do claim to have an open mind, but I DON'T appreciate name calling or condescension and even though I can brush it off with and taking little shots at myself to fend off the wolves for a little while, I can't keep it up forever. Sometimes I need SOMEBODY to jump in and simply say "give the kid a break, he's trying."

TO be honest, and without name calling, it doesnt seem to me that you are trying. I asked several questions that someone who believes the WTC disaster resulted from planted explosives would have to be able to answer. Can you try to answer them? The reason people call you a troll is becasue you post like one. If you want to examin your position, then do so, but to repeatedly proclaim how weird you are without engagin on the issues is tedious and ultimately reinforces the view that you are but a troll.

[taekwondave]

TO be honest, and without name calling, it doesnt seem to me that you are trying. I asked several questions that someone who believes the WTC disaster resulted from planted explosives would have to be able to answer. Can you try to answer them? The reason people call you a troll is becasue you post like one. If you want to examin your position, then do so, but to repeatedly proclaim how weird you are without engagin on the issues is tedious and ultimately reinforces the view that you are but a troll.

You know what, I get it. This whole forum thing is perhaps my favorite distraction, but it is, in fact just that. A distraction. It seems disingenuous to get you all involved in this big thread, only to bow out early. But in the interest of my own friggin life, which I ignore far too often to come here and spout off my weird opinions to people that honestly just think they're crazy...it's not worth it. I will explain what I have understood about the supposed explosives, and then I will leave this thread for the rest of you to discuss if you so choose, but this will be my last post on CUF. I have to recognize a problem when I have one, and I obviously have a problem with feeling the need to spew every dearly held notion I possess all over the internet so it can be used to prove what an idiot I am. I should know better.

So here it is:

From what I saw on "Loose change" and in other documentaries about 9/11, they talk about the fact that a week or so prior to 9/11 the WTC was evacuated for undisclosed reasons and feds did a total sweep of the buildings with bomb sniffing dogs. That seems weird, but now that I think about it, that lends more credibility as to why there WOULDN'T have been any bombs in the buildings because surely the dogs would have found them. But it doesn't answer the question as to why the government doesn't publicly talk about the sweep, as it would easily rule out the demolition charges theory. It was, nevertheless, documented as having happened, and yet they don't talk about it publicly. That seems weird to me.

There are the firefighters I watched on camera claim they heard and saw explosions coming both from the elevator shaft in the lobby of the first building before it crashed, and the "pop, pop, popping" of what they thought were bombs going off as the building started to fall. This all looked and sounded like a traditional controlled implosion. It wasn't meant to make the building explode, but collapse. It looks like any other demolition to me.

There is more. Much more. But I WOULD have to go find it to make it sound even slightly coherent, but basically what it comes down to is that evidence, combined with what looks like a very plausible motive to me, have stacked together in my brain and arrived at a likelihood that I haven't been able to yet relinquish.

If it is based in fantasy I hope to be free of it someday as I do believe that the truth shall set us free. But having said that, not regarding anything that was said to me today, I must recognize the nature of my addiction to online forums as having a significant drain on my time and does not serve in any way to really build up my self image, as my views constantly make me look like a crazy person under public scrutiny. I don't want to be melodramatic about this, but this will definitely be my last post on CUF. I think you guys are great and I will undoubtedly come back frequently just to remind myself that I'm not the only Mormon who hates going to church, but that's it for me. It was fun, just not productive. Much love to you all. I'm just not cut out for this stuff.

[YOhio]

You know what, I get it. This whole forum thing is perhaps my favorite distraction, but it is, in fact just that. A distraction. It seems disingenuous to get you all involved in this big thread, only to bow out early. But in the interest of my own friggin life, which I ignore far too often to come here and spout off my weird opinions to people that honestly just think they're crazy...it's not worth it. I will explain what I have understood about the supposed explosives, and then I will leave this thread for the rest of you to discuss if you so choose, but this will be my last post on CUF. I have to recognize a problem when I have one, and I obviously have a problem with feeling the need to spew every dearly held notion I possess all over the internet so it can be used to prove what an idiot I am. I should know better.

So here it is:

From what I saw on "Loose change" and in other documentaries about 9/11, they talk about the fact that a week or so prior to 9/11 the WTC was evacuated for undisclosed reasons and feds did a total sweep of the buildings with bomb sniffing dogs. That seems weird, but now that I think about it, that lends more credibility as to why there WOULDN'T have been any bombs in the buildings because surely the dogs would have found them. But it doesn't answer the question as to why the government doesn't publicly talk about the sweep, as it would easily rule out the demolition charges theory. It was, nevertheless, documented as having happened, and yet they don't talk about it publicly. That seems weird to me.

There are the firefighters I watched on camera claim they heard and saw explosions coming both from the elevator shaft in the lobby of the first building before it crashed, and the "pop, pop, popping" of what they thought were bombs going off as the building started to fall. This all looked and sounded like a traditional controlled implosion. It wasn't meant to make the building explode, but collapse. It looks like any other demolition to me.

There is more. Much more. But I WOULD have to go find it to make it sound even slightly coherent, but basically what it comes down to is that evidence, combined with what looks like a very plausible motive to me, have stacked together in my brain and arrived at a likelihood that I haven't been able to yet relinquish.

If it is based in fantasy I hope to be free of it someday as I do believe that the truth shall set us free. But having said that, not regarding anything that was said to me today, I must recognize the nature of my addiction to online forums as having a significant drain on my time and does not serve in any way to really build up my self image, as my views constantly make me look like a crazy person under public scrutiny. I don't want to be melodramatic about this, but this will definitely be my last post on CUF. I think you guys are great and I will undoubtedly come back frequently just to remind myself that I'm not the only Mormon who hates going to church, but that's it for me. It was fun, just not productive. Much love to you all. I'm just not cut out for this stuff.

Do you plan on deleting this post along with the others in this thread?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by taekwondave
I would understand your resistance to number one as "a finance guy." These "international bankers" aren't guys you have taken to lunch to get an internship at Bank of America over the summer. These are THE banking families, from what I've heard. J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, Rothschild, Carnegie, the Royal Family, etc. These families have been heading up the English banking cartel since the 1600's. They don't just STOP banking. They don't just STOP owning half the civilized world. They're not some chump BYU finance major walking around your neighborhood looking at sweet real estate deals. As for evidence I have for them, that could be a WHOLE new thread, bro.

You forgot to mention Colonel Sanders.

Oh how I hate the Colonel, with his wee bitty eyes and that smug look on his face....oh you're going to eat my chicken...ooohhhhh!

[falafel]

You'll be back.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Do you plan on deleting this post along with the others in this thread?

......888888888

[Solon]

Do you plan on deleting this post along with the others in this thread?

The "Swan Song" posts are a bit much for me. Taekwondave, I don't think anyone will begrudge you the right to an opinion. CUF is about people discussing issues, laying out evidence, formulating arguments, learning stuff, and humiliating YOhio. Posters around here will, however, begrudge the stating of an opinion without appearing to support it. As in most discussions, tact, subtlety, measured reasoning, thoughtful consideration, and tentative conclusions work better than shrill didacticisms and real/perceived name-calling.

As an English major, surely you can appreciate the value of sound logic, polished rhetoric, and criticism (both constructive and less constructive). And surely you've grown a thick skin when it comes to presenting your ideas in writing.

There's no need for "this is my last post" ultimatums. Just lurk or post or contribute as the desire seizes you. This place is always looking for smart, interesting people with unorthodox opinions and I think you could fit in pretty well.

As for the notion that the federal govt was somehow complicit in bringing down the WTC and blowing a hole in the pentagon, I'm flabbergasted that those who ascribe to these theories think that (a) the government is competent enough to pull off such a huge operation and (b) it was able to cover it up. I think conspirators are giving the feds way, way too much credit.

After all, the feds aren't very good at keeping secrets.

[Coach McGuirk]

TKD, did you know you can fold the 20 dollar bill and it looks like the twin towers burning? Proof right there the government was involved!

[Blueintheface]

If I might interject, I think part of this might have started when I made this comment, which I might add wasn't directed at him at all but for which he made several "apologies".

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...&postcount=171

TKD, you are an odd cat, no doubt, but honestly if you start a discussion, claim that's it's not an argument, then become argumentative and then edit your posts, the world will laugh at you. My advice, laugh with them.

[il Padrino Ute]

I didn't know Dr. Steven Jones posted here. Cool.

[woot]

I don't plan to read this thread, but I'll just say that I was a bit taken in by this kind of thing when I first learned about it. Several long nights of reading everything I could find had me basically convinced. A night or two later, however, I somehow found myself reading some stuff by actual, credible scientists that answered a great number of the questions advanced by the conspiracy crowd (and all they have are questions).

The reason so many Americans believe stupid things isn't necessarily because they're lazy or ignorant. Like me, I suspect a great number of them spent a huge amount of time researching these things. I'm lucky that I happened upon some credible information that broke me out of it, because I, like them, didn't understand how to research, how to evaluate evidence, and how to evaluate sources. I like to think I've gotten better at it since then.

One more point: Conspiracies happen all the time. It seems to be standard practice in police departments, in the military and in civilian government to immediately try to cover up any and all mistakes. We know this happens because we find out about it. Even the smallest and least significant conspiracies seem to come out eventually. Independent of the evidence against the 9/11 conspiracy theories, the idea that such an enormous conspiracy could be carried out without a single leak is simply absurd.

The official 9/11 report strikes me as being a bit of a rush job, and it does indeed leave many questions unanswered. Our options are to notice these questions and ask them in provocative ways ("Why didn't the 9/11 commission investigate X's ties to Y?" "Why won't they release the video footage if they have nothing to hide?" "How did WTC 7 fall if it wasn't hit by a plane?") or we can just accept the mountain of evidence in favor of the basic story, and assume that the missing information wouldn't do much to change that basic story.

[FN Phat]

Straight up, what did you hope to learn about here? If it were dynamite, the place would just fall apart. Strange, where were you when we started this thing? I think the real cause should just stop baffling you. But, please don't change, the only thing that seems to work at all is you.

Stick around, kid. I think you're awesome.

This is reason enough to run, run for the hills! Might I suggest THIS place. It seems that MOST posters (all 2 of 'em) like to have a running dialogue with THEMSELVES.