Confirmed: Jon Huntsman is a wanker

[RobinFinderson]

I must be better than a decent wordsmith ... DDD figured it out! And, in order to assert my comments are often riddled with "logical fallicies" don't you have to first determine what is correct? Of course, the ability to determine what is and isn't correct would make you the authority on logic.

Interesting.

The bolded part is a great example of bad logic, and is an example of what I am talking about when I say that your posts are often riddled with logical fallacies. DDD's ability to figure out what you are trying to say MIGHT be because he has nearly superhuman reading comprehension abilities and it MIGHT be because you are a better than decent wordsmith, or it MIGHT be for some other reason entirely. But it doesn't follow, logically, that his comprehension speaks to the quality of your writing.

[1]The inclusion was deliberate and in that instance I was speaking metaphorically for impact. It worked. Also, it is possible to both speak literally and metaphorically in the same argument. That's the beauty of being human and not a machine.

To be crystal clear, as far as your logical fallacy argument is concerned [2]your original response could be construed as ad hominen delivered on a bed of compliments (warning: metaphorical language). Therefore your comments are in fact a logical fallacy.

[3]Perhaps my so called defensiveness isn't defensiveness. Again, another logical fallacy on your part.

[1]. What exactly is the metaphor when you say that Huntsman hasn't physically left Utah? I would understand if you had said 'spiritually' or 'mentally' or 'culturally,' but I don't understand 'physically.'

[2]. You are right that my original response COULD be construed as ad hominem, but not by anyone who applies the traditional meaning of that concept. As others have pointed out, and ad hominem attack seeks to discredit the source rather than address the source's argument. Good arguments can come from poor sources.

[3]. It isn't a logical fallacy to interpret your presentation as 'tenaciously defensive.' That is just an opinion, and not a fallacy.

Exhibit B. SeattleUte physically left the state of Utah many years ago.

Yeah, I still don't get the metaphorical reference. What does this mean on a metaphorical level?

[NorthwestUteFan]

I sense some backlash against Huntsman (maybe that is incorrect because my only guage is CB) in Utah. Why the animosity? Do people feel like they were duped? Or does it have more to do with feeling rejected?

This is a good question. I also wonder if the feelings of rejection are driving the backlash.

It's sad that one's spiritual journey should take place so publicly and in such a politically charged environment.

True. He is in a can't-win situation. For years I have fought my innate, socialized tendency to make determinations of a person based on his level of activity in church. I have been a huge hypocrite on this front. Living away from Utah has been beneficial to me.

But he doesn't have to run for president.

Is this a personal statement based on your political ideology? If so, that is fine.

Or are you saying Mormons shouldn't run for office unless they are down-the-line orthodox TBM? I don't think it is fair that we must retain the religion of our parents or of our youth to be viable as a candidate. As has been mentioned before, were he to convert from Eastern Orthodox to Baptist, or Episcopalian to Catholic, or simply to be a member of "<fill in the blank religion> on Sunday from 9:00 to 10:00 am only" and drop a few $20 bills on the plate, nobody would care one whit. But people who leave the Mormon church are treated as infidels.

But since he was Mormon he has to do 3+ hours on Sunday, FHE on Monday, YM/Scouts on Wed, service with the EQ or HP group on Sat, attend Ward and Stake Temple Night at least quarterly,etc, to be "validated".

I still say that in a general election, Huntsman will have a better chance of carrying Massachusetts than Romney. Especially now that Pres Obama has endorsed Romneycare...

I have absolutely no problem with people being solid members of the church. It is a good thing, and probably has an overwhelmingly good influence in their lives and on those around them. I have a big problem, however, with people being castigated publically for being less than a perfect Peter Priesthood member. But then again, that is endemic to the "our way or the highway" nature of our religion.

[il Padrino Ute]

A thought just occurred to me (a rare incident, I know):

Let's say that hell actually does freeze over and a Mormon is elected POTUS. What kind of an effect would that have on a calling in his ward/stake? Perhaps we would see something like this:

White House Press Secretary: "The signing of world peace will be rescheduled, as President Mormon has other responsibilities that day."

reporter: "What could possibly take President Mormon away from the most important event in history of the world? Every head of state in the world will be there to sign a declaration of peace!"

Press Secretary: "As 2nd Councilor in his Ward Elder's Quorum, he's been asked to ensure that chairs and tables are set up in the cultural hall for the upcoming Relief Society dinner. It's a responsibility that he takes seriously and any repercussions of failing to fulfill that duty will be disastrous."

reporter: "What?!"

Press Secretary: "You obviously have not had to deal with the Relief Society President, Sister So-and-so." That's all for now. Thank you."

[NorthwestUteFan]

"As 2nd Councilor in his Ward Elder's Quorum,

Oh PUH-LEASE! The President would of course be a High Priest.


Honestly, I think he would have to be a "Sacrament Meeting Only" type.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Oh PUH-LEASE! The President would of course be a High Priest.


Honestly, I think he would have to be a "Sacrament Meeting Only" type.

Or send a couple of YM to the oval office to give him the sacrament.

[Borderline Divine]

I don't understand Utahn's antipathy towards Huntsman. IMO he was the best Governor this state has had in my lifetime.

Also Maryanne is hot.

[TripletDaddy]

The most practical calling for a Mo POTUS is Early Morning Seminary teacher. He can be done with seminary by 7:15AM, head to the White House for work, and still get there before everyone else.

[RobinFinderson]

The one thing I will say about the fallout after a Mormon is elected POTUS -- if you think the conspiracy theories about Obama's birthplace were bad, wait 'til you see what is in store for the Mormon President.

I'd also echo the collective 'huh?' about Huntsman's unlikability. I thought he was a very popular governor.

[Portland Ute]

I don't understand Utahn's antipathy towards Huntsman. IMO he was the best Governor this state has had in my lifetime.

Also Maryanne is hot.

I can't speak for all Utahns, but my dislike of him has nothing to do with his style of Mormonism. In fact, I probably am a lot like him in that regard.

As a conservative, Republican leaning citizen, I hate him because of his ass-tasting position on cap(tax) and trade.

[RC Vikings]

The one thing I will say about the fallout after a Mormon is elected POTUS -- if you think the conspiracy theories about Obama's birthplace were bad, wait 'til you see what is in store for the Mormon President.

The cheering from SLC would soon be replaced by horror as the whole temple ceremony was being picked through piece by piece on MSNBC.

[LA Ute]

Perhaps you two could point us to things that Huntsman said or did along the way that gave strong indications that he is more devout than he now claims to be*. TIA.

Could it be that you just assumed he is devout due to his family and due to the fact that he is Republican? I strongly suspect that the reason you feel that Rampton, Matheson, etc. were more "up-front" is because they were democrats. For many people, that alone is a red flag for "less faithful".

*You might want to steer clear of his support for civil unions as you build your case.

I have no case to build. I was just trying to explain why people might be reacting negatively to his current statements about his faith. I haven't lived in Utah for almost 30 years so I don't know how he behaved in public while governor. But now that you mention it, I do recall seeing him in attendance at general priesthood meeting a couple of times, sitting in the VIP section in the very front. I also remember being kind of impressed that he showed up. That's so anecdotal as to be almost meaningless, but if he did that sort of thing often then it's fair for people to wonder, in light of his current vagueness about his faith, if he was just posturing while governor of Utah. That's all I am saying. If I had lived in Utah I am 100% sure I would have voted for Huntsman and I think he did a good job as governor.

BTW, I know many members who support civil unions. In fact, I think a large chunk of the church membership who don't live in a bubble (Cache County, Utah County, the Mesa, AZ area, for example) also support them. I always have.

[tooblue]

The bolded part is a great example of bad logic, and is an example of what I am talking about when I say that your posts are often riddled with logical fallacies. DDD's ability to figure out what you are trying to say MIGHT be because he has nearly superhuman reading comprehension abilities and it MIGHT be because you are a better than decent wordsmith, or it MIGHT be for some other reason entirely. But it doesn't follow, logically, that his comprehension speaks to the quality of your writing.



[1]. What exactly is the metaphor when you say that Huntsman hasn't physically left Utah? I would understand if you had said 'spiritually' or 'mentally' or 'culturally,' but I don't understand 'physically.'

[2]. You are right that my original response COULD be construed as ad hominem, but not by anyone who applies the traditional meaning of that concept. As others have pointed out, and ad hominem attack seeks to discredit the source rather than address the source's argument. Good arguments can come from poor sources.

[3]. It isn't a logical fallacy to interpret your presentation as 'tenaciously defensive.' That is just an opinion, and not a fallacy.



Yeah, I still don't get the metaphorical reference. What does this mean on a metaphorical level?

It took you 24 hours to come back to this thread? And then you pick on the bolded part? It was a dig ... a joke ... i was having fun at DDD's expense ... lol.

As far as your whole metaphor diatribe goes Robin, you are now reaching. But,if it helps you out even a little ... Exhibit C: RobinFinderson physically left the state of Utah many years ago.

[TripletDaddy]

It took you 24 hours to come back to this thread? And then you pick on the bolded part? It was a dig ... a joke ... i was having fun at DDD's expense ... lol.

As far as your whole metaphor diatribe goes Robin, you are now reaching. But,if it helps you out even a little ... Exhibit C: RobinFinderson physically left the state of Utah many years ago.

I actually thought you were complimenting me.

[RobinFinderson]

It took you 24 hours to come back to this thread? And then you pick on the bolded part? It was a dig ... a joke ... i was having fun at DDD's expense ... lol.

As far as your whole metaphor diatribe goes Robin, you are now reaching. But,if it helps you out even a little ... Exhibit C: RobinFinderson physically left the state of Utah many years ago.

Yeah, but what does that metaphor mean? You can put in a lot of different names, but what is the metaphorical reference you are applying to the word 'physically?'

[RobinFinderson]

Yeah, but what does that metaphor mean? You can put in a lot of different names, but what is the metaphorical reference you are applying to the word 'physically?'

For example, if someone were to say, "RobinFinderson might live in California, but he has never really left the state of Utah," that metaphorically implies that some aspect of Utah-ness continues to color my worldview.

Can you please offer a similar explanation for this metaphor that you keep using, and then explain how it applies to Huntsman?