A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To Jerusalem: Gaza/Israel conflict

[fusnik]

Hmmm. Seems like you might have just made that part up in a stream of consciousness post based on your perceptions/feelings, then? We know for a fact that Hamas has rejected multiple bona fide cease fire proposals that Israel signed on to including deals that would exchange legitimate Hamas prisoners for Israeli civilian hostages at a rate of 20:1. So any off ramp you allude to that Israel is rejecting would necessarily need to be more generous to Hamas those previous proposals. It would be nice to know details before judging if Israel is being unreasonable by rejecting these supposed off ramps.

We all want Hamas to be eradicated. Nobody here sits back and thinks, Hamas can be a rational partner and we can work with them going forward. They are a terrorist ideology capable and willing to do horrible things.

The real question is, what lengths are the US government and by extension each one of us ok with when it comes to the eradication of Hamas. At the end of the day true eradication would have to include IDF troops on street corners in Gaza.

We all know what that version of occupation of Gaza would mean. Thousands of women and children dead. Heightened tensions with Iran. Fracturing of the Saudi/Israeli normalization.

[Maximus]

Hmmm. Seems like you might have just made that part up in a stream of consciousness post based on your perceptions/feelings, then? We know for a fact that Hamas has rejected multiple bona fide cease fire proposals that Israel signed on to including deals that would exchange legitimate Hamas prisoners for Israeli civilian hostages at a rate of 20:1. So any off ramp you allude to that Israel is rejecting would necessarily need to be more generous to Hamas those previous proposals. It would be nice to know details before judging if Israel is being unreasonable by rejecting these supposed off ramps.

israel is responsible for Hamas power. they propped hamas up on purpose.

I think this responsibility means they have to act more resonable in the war. Hamas is alone responsible for no ceasefire agreement though.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol.

When it comes to this you are absolutely unhinged and borderline psychotic.

Game this out in the real world. To accomplish what you advocate the IDF would need to:

hit Gaza with an aerial assault targeting all military instillations

bomb mosques, schools, hospitals, buildings and roads

Clear thousands of buildings of any sympathetics with ground forces

Occupy Gaza with thousands of IDF soldiers for 20-30 years

All while thousands of dead childrens pictures are being broadcast all around the globe.

What could go wrong?

I’d love to hear your thoughts on what we should do with Putin and the Russians considering their terrorism, rape of women and the stealing of children is 10x the magnitude of Oct 7.

Wow, you have done everything but address the main point that he made.

[old_gregg]

20 years ago an election was held and then they killed the opposing parties and kill anyone who protests against them . That is not a free election.

insane copium that ignores the international consensus that the 2006 election of a known terrorist offshoot of a known terrorist group was legitimate. you also ignore the objective evidence that general support for hamas in gaza spiked and has continued to increase since oct 7 (including after the idf invasion) and gazans overwhelmingly and specifically approve of the terrorist attack. gaza is not held hostage by hamas, despite this fiction you cling to in order to exculpate its populace. if gaza is unwilling to root out its own evil, actors that are the victims of it are entitled to do it for them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

insane copium that ignores the international consensus that the 2006 election of a known terrorist offshoot of a known terrorist group was legitimate. you also ignore the objective evidence that general support for hamas in gaza spiked and has continued to increase since oct 7 (including after the idf invasion) and gazans overwhelmingly and specifically approve of the terrorist attack. gaza is not held hostage by hamas, despite this fiction you cling to in order to exculpate its populace. if gaza is unwilling to root out its own evil, actors that are the victims of it are entitled to do it for them.

I have some Palestinian friends and I love them, but everything you say is true. Overwhelming support for Hamas, rockets, everything.

[old_gregg]

I’d love to hear your thoughts on what we should do with Putin and the Russians considering their terrorism, rape of women and the stealing of children is 10x the magnitude of Oct 7.

this is funny whataboutism, but in the interest of ideological consistency, i am clearly on the record that nato and the balance of the west should continue to defend the sovereignty of democracy against terror and incursion and punish the commission of war crimes in all forms. that said, there is a clear distinction between terrorism as its own end and terrorism as a side effect of territorial conquest. both are indefensible, but one is more evil.

[Bo Diddley]

insane copium that ignores the international consensus that the 2006 election of a known terrorist offshoot of a known terrorist group was legitimate. you also ignore the objective evidence that general support for hamas in gaza spiked and has continued to increase since oct 7 (including after the idf invasion) and gazans overwhelmingly and specifically approve of the terrorist attack. gaza is not held hostage by hamas, despite this fiction you cling to in order to exculpate its populace. if gaza is unwilling to root out its own evil, actors that are the victims of it are entitled to do it for them.

It's crazy to me that Hamas' tactics are working and people are buying in to it.

[fusnik]

Wow, you have done everything but address the main point that he made.

I applauded him for making the only clear argument in this thread, kill, kill, kill, until an ideology is destroyed, whatever that means.

At least he has the sack to say it, even though it’s absolutely nutso.

[fusnik]

this is funny whataboutism, but in the interest of ideological consistency, i am clearly on the record that nato and the balance of the west should continue to defend the sovereignty of democracy against terror and incursion and punish the commission of war crimes in all forms. that said, there is a clear distinction between terrorism as its own end and terrorism as a side effect of territorial conquest. both are indefensible, but one is more evil.

JFC read your last 2 sentences again and tell me with a straight face the average 14 year old in Ukraine and Gaza view Putin and Bibi differently.

You are advocating for an absolutely impossible task. Have you not been around for the last 30 years during our multiple incursions into the ME to root out terrorism and extremism?

[fusnik]

I have some Palestinian friends and I love them, but everything you say is true. Overwhelming support for Hamas, rockets, everything.

I have Israeli friends and I love them, but they think everything Bibi says is untrue. Overwhelming support for the deescalation of the war and feel that there’s no rational way forward with Bibi in control.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have Israeli friends and I love them, but they think everything Bibi says is untrue. Overwhelming support for the deescalation of the war and feel that there’s no rational way forward with Bibi in control.

How do they feel about Hamas?

I have Israeli friends with children currently fighting in the IDF (at the age for mandatory service). It's rough.

[USUC]

I applauded him for making the only clear argument in this thread, kill, kill, kill, until an ideology is destroyed, whatever that means.

At least he has the sack to say it, even though it’s absolutely nutso.

No one here has suggested that the ideology held by Hamas can be destroyed. But, they can be severely weakened where they don't politically hold power and can organize a mass murder. The ideology of ISIS wasn't destroyed, but it's ability to control a large chunk of land has been.

[old_gregg]

i certainly know how my friend whose brother was executed at the festival in re'im feels.

[Maximus]

No one here has suggested that the ideology held by Hamas can be destroyed. But, they can be severely weakened where they don't politically hold power and can organize a mass murder. The ideology of ISIS wasn't destroyed, but it's ability to control a large chunk of land has been.

how do you do that without killing the leaders? they have done that too and it didnt work. best case scenario of this op is finding sinwar.

Can you name a scenario in which no hamas has power in gaza without long term occupation?

worst case is you kill your hostages while trying to find him.

I guess if you kill the rest of the current hamas members you dont have a force that has power, until you leave and then its an organized force again

[Copelius]

It's crazy to me that Hamas' tactics are working and people are buying in to it.

So much so that my wife and son are calling the IDF actions genocide and my son is comparing it to Uganda. I consider them generally smart people.