A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To Jerusalem: Gaza/Israel conflict

[Bo Diddley]

So much so that my wife and son are calling the IDF actions genocide and my son is comparing it to Uganda. I consider them generally smart people.

Even smart people have blind spots.

[frank ryan]

I wish Israel had someone besides Bibi at the helm. Although this was an attack by Hamas, that doesn't without Iranian help and a Russia nod. I worry Hamas' plan was to provoke a strong reaction or even overreaction from Israel and utilize that to erode Israeli support. Hamas, as an organization sees civilian casualties as martyrs.

[Omaha 680]

I wish Israel had someone besides Bibi at the helm. Although this was an attack by Hamas, that doesn't without Iranian help and a Russia nod. I worry Hamas' plan was to provoke a strong reaction or even overreaction from Israel and utilize that to erode Israeli support. Hamas, as an organization sees civilian casualties as martyrs.

I find the "if only Netanyahu wasn't in charge" line of argument unconvincing. There might be a different perception if he wasn't in charge given his baggage, but he is not solely in charge. The war cabinet, which includes Bibi's chief rival, makes the overall decisions. And if Netanyahu were ousted tomorrow Beny Ganz would probably be Prime Minister and there would be no difference in the execution of the war. America's perception that there is widespread disagreement in Israel about how to deal with Hamas, especially after Oct 7, is not correct. Nothing is unanimous (see Fus's friends) but there is pretty solid agreement that bridges other political differences in the country.

And I think you are giving Hamas too much credit. They may talk the talk that civilian casualties are martyrs. But to Hamas leadership they are nothing more than props and pawns to manipulate the west. The more we allow this strategy to work the more it will be used. There is a reason why conventional wisdom says don't negotiate with terrorists.

[falafel]

I find the "if only Netanyahu wasn't in charge" line of argument unconvincing. There might be a different perception if he wasn't in charge given his baggage, but he is not solely in charge. The war cabinet, which includes Bibi's chief rival, makes the overall decisions. And if Netanyahu were ousted tomorrow Beny Ganz would probably be Prime Minister and there would be no difference in the execution of the war. America's perception that there is widespread disagreement in Israel about how to deal with Hamas, especially after Oct 7, is not correct. Nothing is unanimous (see Fus's friends) but there is pretty solid agreement that bridges other political differences in the country.

And I think you are giving Hamas too much credit. They may talk the talk that civilian casualties are martyrs. But to Hamas leadership they are nothing more than props and pawns to manipulate the west. The more we allow this strategy to work the more it will be used. There is a reason why conventional wisdom says don't negotiate with terrorists.

I agree with the bolded. There is very strong support for the war in Israel. Nothing like unanimity, that's not the issue most Israelis have with Netanyahu.

To your second paragraph - I think you and frank are saying the same thing. Hamas does not care about the civilians they've endangered. But they pretend they do to drum up support from dumb Americans and others. But regarding the strategy of responding to Hamas, how do you sit back while Israel pins the Palestinians up against the Egyptian border and pummels them? What kind of strategy is "we're going to let this massacre continue until it burns out, just to show them that it won't work the next time"?

[Jeff Lebowski]

A group of about 30 students walked out of Duke graduation ceremony when Jerry Seinfeld got up to talk. Because he is a jew, I guess.

Anyway, this was pretty good:

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[Bo Diddley]

A group of about 30 students walked out of Duke graduation ceremony when Jerry Seinfeld got up to talk. Because he is a jew, I guess.

Anyway, this was pretty good:

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Newman!

[Goatnapper'96]

I agree with the bolded. There is very strong support for the war in Israel. Nothing like unanimity, that's not the issue most Israelis have with Netanyahu.

To your second paragraph - I think you and frank are saying the same thing. Hamas does not care about the civilians they've endangered. But they pretend they do to drum up support from dumb Americans and others. But regarding the strategy of responding to Hamas, how do you sit back while Israel pins the Palestinians up against the Egyptian border and pummels them? What kind of strategy is "we're going to let this massacre continue until it burns out, just to show them that it won't work the next time"?

The strategy destroys Hamas human and material infrastructure. Obviously, a lot of civilians will die as well but for Israel to accomplish its tactical objectives, which I think we all agree they are justified in doing, there is no way to avoid the civilian casualties. If there are specific war crimes that Israeli soldiers, civilians or officers have committed I hope those come to light and those responsible are held to account-but I find the collective KIA numbers of both civilians and military to be essentially pointless. We all know that Hamas imbeds its military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure and that Israel has no choice but to kill civilians to root out and destroy Hamas. On specific case by case situations there is merit but as a collective data point it is essentially superfluous info.

Whatever damage they inflict on Hamas either renders Hamas less and less combat effective or destroys it. In any case it will take Hamas, or whatever organization replaces it, time to rebuild the human and material infrastructure to reach out and hurt Israel in the future. I think that time is worthwhile objective. I think Israel is justified in taking it to that extent and I don't see any political reason it should not.

[Uncle Ted]

A group of about 30 students walked out of Duke graduation ceremony when Jerry Seinfeld got up to talk. Because he is a jew, I guess.

The rumor now is the Dems are pushing for a virtual DNC to avoid the protests:

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Maybe the Dems should just let RJK Jr be their man. Even with a half eaten brain he is still a better candidate than the 'total moron'. Or what about this guy?...

[fusnik]

https://www.instagram.com/middleeast...l/C65-PT2tdAT/

This is nuts but at least it’s honest. It’s why I respect what OG has posted.

Also, insane a bunch of dudes from Utah, presumably still living in Utah, have such intimate connections with Israel.

I don’t think I met a Jewish person IRL until I moved out of the state. Not until living in an area within walking distance of multiple temples and working with a bunch of Jewish people did I have my first real interactions with Jewish folks.

First time I met a person from Israel was a couple weeks after buying my house. A kind, lady, introduced herself, said that if we ever needed anything she lived across the street. 11 years later and we’ve spent hundreds of hours on walks, drinking coffee, meeting family, and babysitting each others animals.

[Maximus]

The strategy destroys Hamas human and material infrastructure. Obviously, a lot of civilians will die as well but for Israel to accomplish its tactical objectives, which I think we all agree they are justified in doing, there is no way to avoid the civilian casualties. If there are specific war crimes that Israeli soldiers, civilians or officers have committed I hope those come to light and those responsible are held to account-but I find the collective KIA numbers of both civilians and military to be essentially pointless. We all know that Hamas imbeds its military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure and that Israel has no choice but to kill civilians to root out and destroy Hamas. On specific case by case situations there is merit but as a collective data point it is essentially superfluous info.

Whatever damage they inflict on Hamas either renders Hamas less and less combat effective or destroys it. In any case it will take Hamas, or whatever organization replaces it, time to rebuild the human and material infrastructure to reach out and hurt Israel in the future. I think that time is worthwhile objective. I think Israel is justified in taking it to that extent and I don't see any political reason it should not.

without an after plan, hamas just comes back.

biden told bibi to have an after plan 6 months ago and he still yells at his defense scretary if he talks about it

so they leave an area, hamas regains it, and then fight it out again for a few months before moving on to a new area, rinse repeat.

the after plan is what the saudis are offering that bibi wont take because of politics.

Hiding behind "senior officers in the Israel Defense Forces" or "members of the General Staff," the message went out to the news organizations. The troops were being sent in for a second time to Jabalya, a third time to Zeitoun and other locations in the northern part of the Gaza Strip because Hamas had returned. And Hamas had returned because Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had refused to provide a "day after" strategy for an alternative force to take control of the power vacuum in Gaza once Hamas' military structure had been dismantled.
It wasn't entirely a new message. The generals have been grumbling about the army having to go into Gaza without an overreaching strategy from the government from the earliest stage of the campaign – even before the ground maneuver began on October 24. But this is the first time these complaints have not just been made in off-the-record conversations, but as part as what can only be a coordinated briefing against the prime minister.

https://archive.ph/dlCNL

[falafel]

The strategy destroys Hamas human and material infrastructure. Obviously, a lot of civilians will die as well but for Israel to accomplish its tactical objectives, which I think we all agree they are justified in doing, there is no way to avoid the civilian casualties. If there are specific war crimes that Israeli soldiers, civilians or officers have committed I hope those come to light and those responsible are held to account-but I find the collective KIA numbers of both civilians and military to be essentially pointless. We all know that Hamas imbeds its military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure and that Israel has no choice but to kill civilians to root out and destroy Hamas. On specific case by case situations there is merit but as a collective data point it is essentially superfluous info.

Whatever damage they inflict on Hamas either renders Hamas less and less combat effective or destroys it. In any case it will take Hamas, or whatever organization replaces it, time to rebuild the human and material infrastructure to reach out and hurt Israel in the future. I think that time is worthwhile objective. I think Israel is justified in taking it to that extent and I don't see any political reason it should not.

I don't know that we are all agreed on the bolded. I think we agree they are justified in attempting to root out Hamas, but there has to be some line here. No one would approve of nuclear weapons being used against Hamas in Gaza, even if it killed every single Hamas fighter. I think we also agree that there is collateral damage in any war (you knowing better than most on this board), but how much collateral damages are we comfortable with? That's the real debate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

https://www.instagram.com/middleeast...l/C65-PT2tdAT/

This is nuts but at least it’s honest. It’s why I respect what OG has posted.

This is you continuing to ignore/mischaracterize the main point OG made.

[falafel]

First time I met a person from Israel was a couple weeks after buying my house. A kind, lady, introduced herself, said that if we ever needed anything she lived across the street. 11 years later and we’ve spent hundreds of hours on walks, drinking coffee, meeting family, and babysitting each others animals.

I wish I could meet a real Israeli like that. I'm stuck with various asians, a few AAs, and a persian.

[Moliere]

I went to lunch with a Jew today. I didn’t ask him if he was a Zionist. He ordered chicken lasagna so I knew from the beginning that his judgment was suspect.

[fusnik]

This is you continuing to ignore/mischaracterize the main point OG made.

I’m obviously dense because I’m not understanding what he means:

OG
‘it aint that complicated: we should be comfortable with whatever level of death and destruction the populace experiencing that death and destruction and its freely and fairly elected governing body is.’

Nobody believes Hamas is winning elections freely and fairly. They terrorize their people with propaganda and violence.

OG
‘the population of gaza continues to overwhelmingly support hamas not just as a political body but as an ideological one, cheering the murder, rape and imprisonment of civilians, including women and kids. the west doesn’t get to cry uncle on someone else’s behalf.’

This sounds great for bloodlust but doesn’t mirror reality:

https://news.stanford.edu/report/202...edium%20extent.

52% of Palestinians don’t trust Hamas

OG
‘anything less than a full idf occupation and administration of every inch in, above and below gaza is an endorsement of terrorism as a legitimate means of achieving political ends.’

Advocacy of full blown occupation. Nobody believes urban warfare ends well. Lindsay Graham, Tom Cotton and OG with a sprinkling of nuclear bombs, nutso.

OG
‘when the residents of gaza reject the ideology that continues to perpetrate the rape and murder of civilians and start to report or at least not sanction rockets stored in schools, war councils happening in hospitals and tunnel networks under aid depots, the war will end. until then, you don’t get to treat civilians as worse than combatants when it suits you and then appeal to civility and humanity when the idf shows up to collect.’

How does a citizenry reject Hamas? Civil war?

80% of Palestinians have severe views on economic outlook. 75% of people have food insecurity. How does that populace rise up?