A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To Jerusalem: Gaza/Israel conflict

[BigPiney]

Silence is violence.

Silence, something about silence makes me sick
'Cause silence can be violent sorta like a slit wrist

[USUC]

Well, language is fluid. The meanings of words change all the time.

Words often change over time organically, not at the behest of simple minded activists who just learned where Gaza was on a map. Is Obama a socialist because the Tea Party said he was?

But, if as you suggest that words are fluid and change over time, what is the current definition of zionism that is agreed upon by society? If its not about israel's existence, what is it? The PLO, Hamas, Muslim brotherhood, etc knows what it is and when they speak of eradicating Zionism, it is the eradication of the jewish state. But activists have been trying to play coy by obfuscating this fact by trying to make the word meaningless. Zionism is now just being used as a vague pejorative that means "bad." So naive activists repeat the mantra lying to themselves that they aren't
repeating language lockstep with Hamas.

[Maximus]

Lol at the lockstep with hamas line

On the other side of the coin, if you accept israel's narrative are you lockstep with extremist israeli leaders?

Is denying palestinians a state extremist?

[tooblue]

Lol at the lockstep with hamas line

If you are pro israel does it mean you are lockstep with the extremist settlers ? Do you deny the Palestinians a right to a state then?

Historically speaking the only groups that have denied Palestinians a right to a state are the Palestinians. In particular their leadership. And they have denied themselves the opportunity because per their ideology a Palestinian state can only be achieved through the eradication of the Israeli state. That is the root of the problem. Until that can be reconciled, there will be no peace. There will be continued violence first perpetrated against jews for no other reason than the fact they are Jews.

[USUC]

Lol at the lockstep with hamas line

On the other side of the coin, if you accept israel's narrative are you lockstep with extremist israeli leaders?

Is denying palestinians a state extremist?

You are right, I should have been more precise in my lockstep line. I'll edit it to accurately convey my sentiment.

Yes, denying the Palestinians a state is extremist. Any guesses on who is complicit in denying Palestinians a state?

[Maximus]

Hmm are you talking about Bibi? (leader for 2 decades) when he said he pays/props up hamas to prevent a state?

palestinian leaders arent willing. neither are israeli leaders since the 90s when the one willing was assisinated. slight chance later and that was on palestinians.

[USUC]

Hmm are you talking about Bibi? (leader for 2 decades) when he said he pays/props up hamas to prevent a state?

palestinian leaders arent willing. neither are israeli leaders since the 90s when the one willing was assisinated. slight chance later and that was on palestinians.

And Jordan, and Egypt, and the Arab League...

You are mistaking me for a defender of all of Israel's policies. I am not.

[smokymountainrain]

30% of Israeli citizens are arabs. They don't "openly discriminate" in the way you imply. And they have every bit as much right to have a jewish state as the neighboring countries have to be islamic states. There is more religious freedom in Israel than any other country in the region.

By the way, go look up how the jewish populations in places like Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Russia, etc have changed over the last 20-30 years or so. They are being systematically expelled by persecution, violence, etc. There are hardly any jews left in those countries. After the holocaust and decades of open persecution, you are going to tell them they can't have a homeland?

to be clear, i wasn't implying anything. was literally just asking a question i didn't know the answer to.

[Maximus]

And Jordan, and Egypt, and the Arab League...

You are mistaking me for a defender of all of Israel's policies. I am not.

Job? Jordan? Explain

[Maximus]

to be clear, i wasn't implying anything. was literally just asking a question i didn't know the answer to.

Arab and palestinian citizens are definitely lower class

But his point that all other Arab states kick out their jews is true too

[Maximus]

I like this article from Friedman

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/01/o...ceasefire.html


https://archive.ph/4bZrA

The reason I was so wary about Israel invading Gaza with the aim of totally eliminating Hamas was certainly not out of any sympathy for Hamas, which has been a curse on the Palestinian people even more than on Israel. It was out of a deep concern that Israel was acting out of blind rage, aiming at an unattainable goal — wiping Hamas from the face of the earth as one of its ministers advocated — and with no plan for the morning after.
In doing so Israel could get stuck in Gaza forever — owning all its pathologies and having to govern its more than two million people amid a humanitarian crisis, and even worse, discrediting the very Israeli military that it was trying to restore Israelis’ trust in.
Quite honestly, I thought back to America after 9/11. And I asked myself, what do I wish I had done more of before we launched two wars of revenge and transformation in Afghanistan and Iraq for which they and we paid a huge price?
I wish I’d argued for what the C.I.A. calls a “Red Cell” or “Red Team” — a group of intelligence officers outside the direct military or political chain of command, whose main job would have been to examine the war plans and goals for Iraq and Afghanistan and stress-test them by proposing contrarian alternatives for achievable goals to restore U.S. security and deterrence. And to have that Red Team’s recommendations be made public before we went to war
As a retired senior U.S. intelligence official said to me: The role of the C.I.A.’s Red Cell on other thorny problems “was to help the U.S. government make decisions with eyes wide open and to buy down, but not eliminate, risk. It’s not a sign of weakness to make fully informed decisions and I think the Red Cell is a great tool for weighing alternative options and potential second- and third-order effects. Israel’s leaders need to be rigorous and not only passionate at this moment in time.”
So it’s with that in mind that I am proposing Israel create not only a Red Team for how to deal with Hamas in Gaza but also a Blue Team to critique the Red Team. Israel needs to have a much more robust internal debate because it has clearly rushed into a war with multiple contradictory goals.
Israel’s stated aim is to get back all its remaining hostages — now more than 130 soldiers and civilians — while destroying Hamas and its infrastructure once and for all, while doing it in a way that doesn’t cause more Gazan civilian casualties than the Biden administration can defend, and without leaving Israel responsible for Gaza forever and having to pay its bills every day. Good luck with all that.
Here’s what an Israeli Red Team might point out and advocate instead.
For starters, because the military and cabinet rushed into Gaza in this war and seemingly never game-planned for any endgame, Israel now finds itself in a difficult predicament. It has pushed well over one million civilians from northern Gaza to the south to get them away from the fight as it has attempted to wipe out all Hamas fighters in Gaza City and its environs. But now, the only way that Israel can take the ground war to southern Gaza — around Khan Younis, where Hamas’s senior leadership is suspected of hiding in tunnels — is by moving through this mass of displaced people and by creating even more.
Facing this predicament, the Israeli Red Team would suggest a radical alternative: Israel should call for a permanent cease-fire that would be followed by an immediate Israeli withdrawal of all military forces in Gaza on the condition that Hamas return all the hostages it has left, civilians and military, and any dead. But Hamas would get no Palestinian prisoners in return. Just a clean deal — Israeli withdrawal and a permanent cease-fire in return for the 130-plus Israeli hostages.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Despicable.

Embedded Tweet

[Maximus]

I hadnt seen this before. Dang. UN is complicit

https://vimeo.com/856467890

[Omaha 680]

I hadnt seen this before. Dang. UN is complicit

https://vimeo.com/856467890

Wait, are you saying you didn't know before about UNRWA's complicity in and often outright promotion of Palestinian terror?

[Maximus]

Haha come on. Just a new video for me