2024 Presidential Election Thread

[Northwestcoug]

Yeesh. The word "nuance" is doing some heavy lifting there. Not a single one of those cases listed seem like a viable or defensible reason to kill a perfectly healthy late-term baby.



This is correct. A year or so ago I saw abortion data for the state of Utah prior to the Dobbs decision. Out of the thousands of abortions performed in Utah every year, only a few dozen involved rape, incest, or health of the child/mother. The overwhelming majority were for convenience.

Convenience is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, if you're including mental health of mothers. Regardless, if a mother's mental health is not a justifiable reason later in the pregnancy, what is the justification of allowing it before any arbitrary gestational age?

[falafel]

Utah had 3k elective abortions in 2021. Half of the females getting abortions were using contraception during sex.

1500 cited socioeconomic difficulties as the reason
1000 cited elective
500 cited means of contraception

I’m sympathetic to the abortion hardliners as I can see their view point but I highly doubt these 3k females were simply making a life altering decision simply out of convenience.

Seems like potentially 1500 of them did. 1000 as elective, and 500 as a "convenient" way of not being pregnant.

[Northwestcoug]

Musk doing his level best to get a cabinet position in a Trump administration:

Embedded Tweet

[fusnik]

Seems like potentially 1500 of them did. 1000 as elective, and 500 as a "convenient" way of not being pregnant.

I’d be willing to bet a large sum of money that if you any of us spoke with those 1500 women, that we would walk away from a vast majority of those conversations sympathetic to the decision made and wouldn’t characterize their decision as one of convenience.

[falafel]

I’d be willing to bet a large sum of money that if you any of us spoke with those 1500 women, that we would walk away from a vast majority of those conversations sympathetic to the decision made and wouldn’t characterize their decision as one of convenience.

I think you are probably right. I didn't intend to criticize their decisions so much as point out the possibility. Regardless, we still have 500 women apparently reported getting an abortion just as contraception. The category that includes a trips to the drug store the next morning for Plan B and used condoms that cost $0.03 each to make. There are going to be some women in that category that won't get much sympathy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Convenience is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, if you're including mental health of mothers. Regardless, if a mother's mental health is not a justifiable reason later in the pregnancy, what is the justification of allowing it before any arbitrary gestational age?

I am sympathetic to that argument as I think it has moral clarity and consistency. Especially if we are talking about a self-determination of mental health, given how nebulous that term has become. I can also intellectually understand a moral stance where the agency and interest of the mother vs child is on a spectrum that is heavily weighted to the mother early in the pregnancy and then shifts when the child becomes fully formed and viable and entitled to protection. In fact, I would guess that is where most people would claim to be if they were to analyze it carefully. But the logical extension of what you are implying (correct me if I am wrong) is that a completely healthly, near full-term child could be legally killed out of respect for the mental health of the mother. This seems completely barbaric and outrageous to me.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I’d be willing to bet a large sum of money that if you any of us spoke with those 1500 women, that we would walk away from a vast majority of those conversations sympathetic to the decision made and wouldn’t characterize their decision as one of convenience.

socioeconomic:
- I can't afford a baby right now
- I already have two kids
- I need to finish college
- I am too young. I don't feel ready to have a baby
- I don't want to be a single mother
etc.

After a few decades of Roe v. Wade, our moral calculus has shifted significantly.

[fusnik]

I think you are probably right. I didn't intend to criticize their decisions so much as point out the possibility. Regardless, we still have 500 women apparently reported getting an abortion just as contraception. The category that includes a trips to the drug store the next morning for Plan B and used condoms that cost $0.03 each to make. There are going to be some women in that category that won't get much sympathy.

Agree and there are going to be some women in that category that their reasons for abortion are going to be outright appalling.

My overall point is that abortion isn’t really a dem v repub issue. Most people want it and it is has decreased dramatically since 1990.

[falafel]

Agree and there are going to be some women in that category that their reasons for abortion are going to be outright appalling.

My overall point is that abortion isn’t really a dem v repub issue. Most people want it and it is has decreased dramatically since 1990.

weird day

[falafel]

socioeconomic:
- I can't afford a baby right now
- I already have two kids
- I need to finish college
- I am too young. I don't feel ready to have a baby
- I don't want to be a single mother
etc.

After a few decades of Roe v. Wade, our moral calculus has shifted significantly.

I don't see you actually saying this is a bad thing.

I think things have changed a lot just in the last 10-15 years nationally (I'm guessing historical polling data will bear that out). My wife, a former PICU nurse, went from a solid LDS-style opposition to abortion to telling me that if my 17 year old daughter were to get pregnant tomorrow, she'd drive her to the clinic. The world is such a different place than it was when Roe v. Wade was originally decided. Roe helped usher in a lot of that change, but it couldn't have been the primary factor.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My overall point is that abortion isn’t really a dem v repub issue. Most people want it and it is has decreased dramatically since 1990.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...galization-us/

Abortion should be legal with zero restrictions:
Republicans - 6%
Democrats - 42%

Abortion should only be legal in special circumstances:
Republicans - 50%
Democrats - 18%

Abortion should never be allowed:
Republicans - 16%
Democrats - 4%

Response to Dobbs decision by party:

[Northwestcoug]

I am sympathetic to that argument as I think it has moral clarity and consistency. Especially if we are talking about a self-determination of mental health, given how nebulous that term has become. I can also intellectually understand a moral stance where the agency and interest of the mother vs child is on a spectrum that is heavily weighted to the mother early in the pregnancy and then shifts when the child becomes fully formed and viable and entitled to protection. In fact, I would guess that is where most people would claim to be if they were to analyze it carefully. But the logical extension of what you are implying (correct me if I am wrong) is that a completely healthly, near full-term child could be legally killed out of respect for the mental health of the mother. This seems completely barbaric and outrageous to me.

My position is that there is no moral clarity on abortion, and that both the pro-choice and pro-life sides have valid moral arguments. Since I don't believe that abortion is murder, I don't fully sympathize with the pro-life position that all abortions take away a potential life, but I respect the position.

Like all moral/legal arguments, abortion is a messy, thorny issue. And unless you are on the extreme ends of the spectrum that give fetuses complete protection or mothers absolute decision rights, almost every single abortion resides in a grey zone of morality. Of course I side with the pro-choice argument early in the pregnancy where the mother's rights and wishes are paramount. As the fetus nears viability and past that, yeah it's messy. I probably side with the mother more than most, but I firmly believe that the rare late-term abortion is not a casual decision. You may think 'mental health' is too nebulous and flippant a reason to get an abortion, but I trust you've seen despondent women who do not have the emotional capacity or economic means to care for another child at some time. I've seen them. Somewhat relatedly I've seen severe post-partum depression to the point where hospitalization was required. Pregnancy is not always a blessed event. If a woman vocalizes she's not prepared to welcome a new child society should listen carefully.

[Northwestcoug]

I don't see you actually saying this is a bad thing.

I think things have changed a lot just in the last 10-15 years nationally (I'm guessing historical polling data will bear that out). My wife, a former PICU nurse, went from a solid LDS-style opposition to abortion to telling me that if my 17 year old daughter were to get pregnant tomorrow, she'd drive her to the clinic. The world is such a different place than it was when Roe v. Wade was originally decided. Roe helped usher in a lot of that change, but it couldn't have been the primary factor.

I think I've told this before, But a lifetime ago when I was a straight-laced Utah transplant in the den of iniquity that was Montreal, one of my OB/Gyn attendings talked about a 15 year-old pregnant girl (I can't remember if it was his patient or just a hypothetical). But he said in so many words that he could sleep at night performing an abortion on her, in effect taking on himself that moral weight (or immoral depending on your belief) so she didn't have to, and she could go on with her life with hopefully less of the guilt that so many in society would want her to be saddled with. That resonated a lot with me, and I became pro-choice while still solidly in the church for another 15 years.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My position is that there is no moral clarity on abortion, and that both the pro-choice and pro-life sides have valid moral arguments. Since I don't believe that abortion is murder, I don't fully sympathize with the pro-life position that all abortions take away a potential life, but I respect the position.

Like all moral/legal arguments, abortion is a messy, thorny issue. And unless you are on the extreme ends of the spectrum that give fetuses complete protection or mothers absolute decision rights, almost every single abortion resides in a grey zone of morality. Of course I side with the pro-choice argument early in the pregnancy where the mother's rights and wishes are paramount. As the fetus nears viability and past that, yeah it's messy. I probably side with the mother more than most, but I firmly believe that the rare late-term abortion is not a casual decision. You may think 'mental health' is too nebulous and flippant a reason to get an abortion, but I trust you've seen despondent women who do not have the emotional capacity or economic means to care for another child at some time. I've seen them. Somewhat relatedly I've seen severe post-partum depression to the point where hospitalization was required. Pregnancy is not always a blessed event. If a woman vocalizes she's not prepared to welcome a new child society should listen carefully.

Please walk us through a scenario where a late-term abortion of a healthy baby would be justified out of concern for the mother's health.

Let's put it this way: You would not allow a mother to kill her baby one week after it is born, out of concern for her mental health. That would be considered murder. Why would you allow it one week before it is born?

[Northwestcoug]

Please walk us through a scenario where a late-term abortion of a healthy baby would be justified out of concern for the mother's health.

Let's put it this way: You would not allow a mother to kill her baby one week after it is born, out of concern for her mental health. That would be considered murder. Why would you allow it one week before it is born?

That definitely is not my argument, and a case like that the morality certainly moves towards the pro-life side.

I will play this game if you tell me what gestational age you are comfortable with mothers getting abortions for any reason whatsoever. So here's a rare situation where the possibility of a very late term abortion should be considered: a mentally disabled woman who cannot reasonably care for a child.