The Official Thread for Runners

[ERCougar]

I started a thread about problems with my Garmin 405 in the cycling forum and was encouraged to post over here.

I started running for the first time in my life a few weeks ago as a 36 year old. I've been riding road bikes since I was in high school and went through the racing scene for a few years but settled on being content on just being recreational about it. My wife is a runner and has bugged me for years to give it a try. Due to fears of inherited bad knees and a distaste for the pounding, I didn't ever give it much thought, until recently.

I recently decided that if I ever hoped to exercise during the week, I would need to come up with something that I could do before the sun came up, for a shorter duration than riding. Running made the most sense.

I got me some shoes in July and started running in August after getting over a nasty cold with the goal to run the Snow Canyon half marathon the first week of November to keep me motivated.

About three weeks ago, a friend had to pull out of my wife's Las Vegas Ragnar team due to knee pain, so I decided to step into my first official running event. It helped that she had been given the easiest position and I felt confident of being able to do a decent job, despite only having been training for a couple of months. That changed about a week later when someone else on the team asked to trade out for that position since they hadn't been training, so I ended up being runner 8. (Maybe I'll post my Ragnar thoughts in the Ragnar thread even though it's not directly related.)

As I've gotten more adept in the sport, I've had a couple of questions come up that I wanted to get some feedback on.
1. I seem to run more at my heart rate than anything else meaning that my speed tends to fluctuate but my heart rate is typically within 3-5 bpm regardless of terrain. Which probably isn't too unusual. But what I think may be unusual is the fact that my average heart beat is 171 bpm. When on my bike, my average is down in the 150's. That seems to be a pretty significant difference. As I continue to train, I seem to be getting faster but my heart rate has stayed in the 170's. Is running at that rate theoretically sustainable? This should easily be in my anaerobic zone but for whatever reason, I am able to maintain that rate for well over an hour. As my distances continue to climb, should I be trying to run at a lower heart rate or just run at that rate as long as it's "comfortable?" My longest run to date has been 10 miles, an uphill out and back. As I make the final preparations for the half marathon, should I focus on running at a lower heart rate to ensure that I have enough in reserves to finish strongly?

2. My second question is setting time targets. I don't considered finishing a challenging goal but I also don't want to set the bar so high that I end up disappointed in my first run. I've been pushing low 8:00's on shorter runs ~3 miles that also include a little bit of climbing. My 10 miler averaged around 9:30 but also included 500 feet of climbing. I'd really like to break the 2 hour mark but the more I focus on that, I feel like I should be more aggressive. Is it best to just show up and run and see what happens or should I hyper focus on pace so much that I don't really appreciate my first half? This might all be moot since my Garmin seems to be on the fritz and unless I want to run with my phone, I won't be able to keep an eye on my pace.

Thanks for any insight.

A few thoughts:
1) Anaerobic thresholds are pretty variable. Yes, 171 is high for your age, but if you can keep it there for over an hour, it's probably correct. There are some sophisticated ways to test for lactate threshold and whatnot but for the average athlete, you just start to get a feel for where it is.
2) Cycling heart rate targets should be around 10 beats lower than running heart rate targets. I don't know why this is, but it jives with my experience, and I posted a link to an article once that echoed this (it's here somewhere--but I'd be hard pressed to find it). Rowing/Swimming heart rate targets should be another 5-10 beats lower than cycling.
3) Low 8's seems like a reasonable goal for you. There are plenty of online calculators if you google it that will give you goal paces for different distances based on what you've done.
4) My first love is mountain biking (than running than road riding), but you're spot on that running is the most convenient, cheapest, and versatile form of workout. And not hard on your knees if you do it right! I love the purity of it--it's just you and the road--no buying your way into faster times (I'm looking at you, roadies).

[Pheidippides]

I started a thread about problems with my Garmin 405 in the cycling forum and was encouraged to post over here.

I started running for the first time in my life a few weeks ago as a 36 year old. I've been riding road bikes since I was in high school and went through the racing scene for a few years but settled on being content on just being recreational about it. My wife is a runner and has bugged me for years to give it a try. Due to fears of inherited bad knees and a distaste for the pounding, I didn't ever give it much thought, until recently.

I recently decided that if I ever hoped to exercise during the week, I would need to come up with something that I could do before the sun came up, for a shorter duration than riding. Running made the most sense.

I got me some shoes in July and started running in August after getting over a nasty cold with the goal to run the Snow Canyon half marathon the first week of November to keep me motivated.

About three weeks ago, a friend had to pull out of my wife's Las Vegas Ragnar team due to knee pain, so I decided to step into my first official running event. It helped that she had been given the easiest position and I felt confident of being able to do a decent job, despite only having been training for a couple of months. That changed about a week later when someone else on the team asked to trade out for that position since they hadn't been training, so I ended up being runner 8. (Maybe I'll post my Ragnar thoughts in the Ragnar thread even though it's not directly related.)

As I've gotten more adept in the sport, I've had a couple of questions come up that I wanted to get some feedback on.
1. I seem to run more at my heart rate than anything else meaning that my speed tends to fluctuate but my heart rate is typically within 3-5 bpm regardless of terrain. Which probably isn't too unusual. But what I think may be unusual is the fact that my average heart beat is 171 bpm. When on my bike, my average is down in the 150's. That seems to be a pretty significant difference. As I continue to train, I seem to be getting faster but my heart rate has stayed in the 170's. Is running at that rate theoretically sustainable? This should easily be in my anaerobic zone but for whatever reason, I am able to maintain that rate for well over an hour. As my distances continue to climb, should I be trying to run at a lower heart rate or just run at that rate as long as it's "comfortable?" My longest run to date has been 10 miles, an uphill out and back. As I make the final preparations for the half marathon, should I focus on running at a lower heart rate to ensure that I have enough in reserves to finish strongly?

2. My second question is setting time targets. I don't considered finishing a challenging goal but I also don't want to set the bar so high that I end up disappointed in my first run. I've been pushing low 8:00's on shorter runs ~3 miles that also include a little bit of climbing. My 10 miler averaged around 9:30 but also included 500 feet of climbing. I'd really like to break the 2 hour mark but the more I focus on that, I feel like I should be more aggressive. Is it best to just show up and run and see what happens or should I hyper focus on pace so much that I don't really appreciate my first half? This might all be moot since my Garmin seems to be on the fritz and unless I want to run with my phone, I won't be able to keep an eye on my pace.

Thanks for any insight.

I have to defer to ERCougar on HR data, of course, but I can share my own anecdotal evidence. Other than my last marathon (a complete disaster due to an injury that had me walking most of the way), my HR is amazingly consistent when racing equivalent distances. For each of my other marathons, it averaged 151 over the course of the race. But note that my speeds were not the same. Same thing for races at other distances - my half marathon HR is dead on in all of them, yet I run faster in some. I have my own theories as to why it is but generally speaking I think my heart has its own pace it likes to keep.

I echo the lactate variation comment. I've had mine tested a few times, and it varies based on what I'm doing and how hard I've been training. No doubt the variation across people is normal.

As to question #2, I find time targets hard for me even now after a few years of running/racing. I do like the McMillan running calculator - it's not dead on, and there are many factors in play, but it's good enough to give an idea of what to look for. One bit of advice: take it slow at first. Every single PR I've set - every one - was a race in which I started off thinking I'd just cruise and have a good time, not worrying about speed. The first mile or two was slow, and then I'd take off and never look back.

[OhioBlue]

Wanted to add my congrats to PH, sounds like you had a good time and caught the bug! Here's to more enjoyment, more races, and more chafing.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I have to defer to ERCougar on HR data, of course, but I can share my own anecdotal evidence. Other than my last marathon (a complete disaster due to an injury that had me walking most of the way), my HR is amazingly consistent when racing equivalent distances. For each of my other marathons, it averaged 151 over the course of the race. But note that my speeds were not the same. Same thing for races at other distances - my half marathon HR is dead on in all of them, yet I run faster in some. I have my own theories as to why it is but generally speaking I think my heart has its own pace it likes to keep.

I echo the lactate variation comment. I've had mine tested a few times, and it varies based on what I'm doing and how hard I've been training. No doubt the variation across people is normal.

As to question #2, I find time targets hard for me even now after a few years of running/racing. I do like the McMillan running calculator - it's not dead on, and there are many factors in play, but it's good enough to give an idea of what to look for. One bit of advice: take it slow at first. Every single PR I've set - every one - was a race in which I started off thinking I'd just cruise and have a good time, not worrying about speed. The first mile or two was slow, and then I'd take off and never look back.

My HR is higher than normal for geezers my age (59). For the half marathon last month, I averaged 151, too, but averaged 161 the last mile when I stepped up the pace (a blazing 9:00/mile--hey, stop laughing). I'd like to think my elevated HR is akin to the high rpms of finely tuned European sports cars, but in truth I know it's more analogous to a '73 Datsun that's stuck in second gear.

[Parrot Head]

Congrats on your accomplishment, Parrot Head. I find myself in a similar situation to what you recently went through preparing for my first half marathon out in Vegas in Dec. I'm a little nervous, but my runs have been going really well. Ideally I'd like to break the 2 hr mark, and I think it's attainable based on what I've been turning in on my longer prep runs (8-9 miles). Glad to see somebody else go through it for the first time and rekindle that motivation to keep chugging away.

Go out and enjoy yourself. Fortunately, I was busy enough at work the last week that I didn't have time to think about it too much. I worked until about 8:30 Friday night, but then I started reviewing the course and the hills and the nervousness set in. It's an awesome sense of exhilaration. The Rock n Roll should be a lot of fun, too. I wanted to run the Savannah half, but it filled up pretty early. I've got some FF miles -- maybe the wife will let me catch the one in Madrid next spring.

Nice job, PH! I think the half is a great distance because you still get a deserved sense of accomplishment without beating the crap out of your body. Good to see a new convert! Did you trace in vff's?

I didn't run in the VFFs. After tweaking my ankle in them in the spring, I toned it down some and have only used them for shorter distances. Now that I have this half under the belt, though, I want to move back in that direction and return to the goal of improving my form. I also want to get another pair of shoes to provide a little variety in the standard running shoes.

Congrats on the half, PH. Like ERC said, the half is a great race as it is tough enough that most people can do it and feel challenged by going as hard as you want, yet it doesn't beat you up nearly as much as marathon training does.

How are you guys feeling 2 days later?

Honestly, I don't feel as great as I hoped and I think that goes back to my knee. Because it was tender at the end of the race and I wanted to get the camera from the car before my wife finished, I didn't take enough time to stretch on-site. I'm going to try to run in the morning, but I don't want to push it unnecessarily. But the foam roller has been great since the run. I wish we'd taken it to the race because as soon as I got on it at home, my knee loosened up quite a bit.

For anyone that doesn't have one, buy a good foam roller!

[Parrot Head]

We need to have some family nonproliferation treaty talks. Pretty much everyone in the family has done a half this year for the first time, and now the daughter in Manhattan is running the NYC Marathon in a couple of weeks. Stop the insanity!

Congrats, though, on a major accomplishment.

Is that the prevent defense talking? C'mon!

I want to run a half again in the not-too-distant future -- maybe we can hit Disney in January? -- but the only physical goal so far for 2012 is to get a century under my belt. Of course, before President's Day this year I had run all of about 10 miles in the past 5 1/2 years so we may be the rogue Kim Jong Il to your hippy peacefest.

[bluegoose]

Honestly, I don't feel as great as I hoped and I think that goes back to my knee. Because it was tender at the end of the race and I wanted to get the camera from the car before my wife finished, I didn't take enough time to stretch on-site. I'm going to try to run in the morning, but I don't want to push it unnecessarily. But the foam roller has been great since the run. I wish we'd taken it to the race because as soon as I got on it at home, my knee loosened up quite a bit.

For anyone that doesn't have one, buy a good foam roller!

My wife took a second bag with her on the plane to StGeorge just so that she could stuff her foam roller and her body pillow in for the trip. She has had some occasional ITB problems in the past, but as long as she uses the roller before and after her hard runs she seems to be fine.

Glad it went well. Don't go out running again too soon or go too hard until you are fully recovered. Thats a good way to hurt yourself.

[Pheidippides]

Is that the prevent defense talking? C'mon!

I want to run a half again in the not-too-distant future -- maybe we can hit Disney in January? -- but the only physical goal so far for 2012 is to get a century under my belt. Of course, before President's Day this year I had run all of about 10 miles in the past 5 1/2 years so we may be the rogue Kim Jong Il to your hippy peacefest.

If you're doing Disney in January you should sign up now. If it's not too late. Coach and I will be there, as will my wife and father (both running the half as well).

Last night I had a scare. 7 miler, doing pretty well considering the shape I'm in, when I dude walking two little yappy dogs came around the corner. Neither was on a leash. One yapped, the other tried to chase and nip my ankles. Big mistake. I booted that sucker into the next county. And then I continued on my way.

[happyone]

If you're doing Disney in January you should sign up now. If it's not too late. Coach and I will be there, as will my wife and father (both running the half as well).

Last night I had a scare. 7 miler, doing pretty well considering the shape I'm in, when I dude walking two little yappy dogs came around the corner. Neither was on a leash. One yapped, the other tried to chase and nip my ankles. Big mistake. I booted that sucker into the next county. And then I continued on my way.

Good for you - I HATE yappy little dogs running loose!!!!

[bluegoose]

I had a really tough track workout this morning, made much worse by a stiff north wind and nothing to block the wind at all from that direction.

My workout called for 4x200m, 3x1000m, 3x400m, all with a 200m recovery in between. The 1000s were really hard - much tougher than an 800m interval session. I'm not sure why, since its only a half lap more, but I was completely spent after each of those 3 reps to the point of some nausea and light-headedness.

I think it was the wind that was as discouraging as anything. When i finished my intervals and was cooling down I was asking myself why I do that to myself. All for some stupid turkey trot that I have no prayer of even winning a lousy Marie Calendars age group pie. Razzleberry is good, but not that good.

[Pheidippides]

Good for you - I HATE yappy little dogs running loose!!!!

It's always the little dogs too. I felt no remorse. Second time I've actually connected with a kick over the last two years.

Once I got rushed by a mastiff. I think he got distracted by the pile of my own crap I left in my wake. It was scary.

[PaloAltoCougar]

It's always the little dogs too. I felt no remorse. Second time I've actually connected with a kick over the last two years.

Once I got rushed by a mastiff. I think he got distracted by the pile of my own crap I left in my wake. It was scary.

I wish I'd done that to Rin Tin Tin who took a small piece of my calf almost a year ago to the day. Now, if I see an unleashed dog, I slow down and keep my distance, but if another one charges, I'm going Sebastian Janikowski on it.

[BigPiney]

I forgot to post about it, but 2 weeks before the marathon, I went out for a quick run before work and a cattle dog or border collie or something to that effect starts charging at me and barking. So I picked up some rocks and yelled at it to get away. The owner that is staying at the campground starts yelling at me to put the rocks down. The hell I will. I throw a rock at the dog when it starts to get too close and pick up another. As the dog gets too close again I kick it while also trying to deflect its attack. Now the owner gets his own rock and throws one at me, narrowly missing, and then comes over to get in my face. I would have beat him down, the fucking old guy, if his dog was still not presenting a serious threat the entire time. He tells me that you never pick up a rock, and that only makes the dog attack. Like hell, he must not know the same res dogs that I do. I manage to back away from both the assholes and run the 1/2 mile home.

There I called the sheriff, and a deputy and animal control show up a half hour later to document and take pictures of the open wounds on my leg. Lucking they are only scratches as I was able to avoid the bite when the dog attacked. They managed to find the owner and the dog. Took the dog to the pound till they were able to determine if it had all its shots. I don't know how much the guy was fined, but it wasn't enough. I decided not to press charges, it only would have been a misdemeanor, but my wife was sure pissed that I didn't when I told her.

I wish at the time I had either brought the mace I have with me, or a baseball bat. I would still take nothing but pleasure from taking a nice hard swing with an aluminum bat and connecting with that dogs skull. Lucking for everyone, myself included, the guy and dog are from LA somewhere, so I will hopefully never see either again.

BTW, I never liked dogs, but I really hate them now.

[Pheidippides]

I forgot to post about it, but 2 weeks before the marathon, I went out for a quick run before work and a cattle dog or border collie or something to that effect starts charging at me and barking. So I picked up some rocks and yelled at it to get away. The owner that is staying at the campground starts yelling at me to put the rocks down. The hell I will. I throw a rock at the dog when it starts to get too close and pick up another. As the dog gets too close again I kick it while also trying to deflect its attack. Now the owner gets his own rock and throws one at me, narrowly missing, and then comes over to get in my face. I would have beat him down, the fucking old guy, if his dog was still not presenting a serious threat the entire time. He tells me that you never pick up a rock, and that only makes the dog attack. Like hell, he must not know the same res dogs that I do. I manage to back away from both the assholes and run the 1/2 mile home.

There I called the sheriff, and a deputy and animal control show up a half hour later to document and take pictures of the open wounds on my leg. Lucking they are only scratches as I was able to avoid the bite when the dog attacked. They managed to find the owner and the dog. Took the dog to the pound till they were able to determine if it had all its shots. I don't know how much the guy was fined, but it wasn't enough. I decided not to press charges, it only would have been a misdemeanor, but my wife was sure pissed that I didn't when I told her.

I wish at the time I had either brought the mace I have with me, or a baseball bat. I would still take nothing but pleasure from taking a nice hard swing with an aluminum bat and connecting with that dogs skull. Lucking for everyone, myself included, the guy and dog are from LA somewhere, so I will hopefully never see either again.

BTW, I never liked dogs, but I really hate them now.

I'm with your wife. You should have hammered him. I would have probably thrown a few rocks at the human for good measure.

I hate dogs on my bike, but I have yet to find one I can't outsprint. On foot it's a much scarier proposition for me.

[Parrot Head]

ARRGGGHHH.....

I finally went out running again this morning for the first time since the half a week and a half ago and after half a mile (lots of "half" in this sentence, huh?), I started to get a stinging pain behind my kneecap. I would then walk a bit and go back to running and it was fine for a little while. Walk, then run. But each time I went back to running, when the pain did come back, it seemed to be a sharper pain.

I had some pain during the half, but this was worse today, though I haven't felt it too much since ending my run. I forgot to stretch afterwards because I was thrown off by the change of plans, but I usually do a pretty good job of stretching and foam rolling post-run.

Any suggestions for how to overcome this or any other advice related to this would be appreciated. My previous long was one run of 10 miles before the half, so I know I jumped up a bit in distance -- maybe too much, too soon?

Apart from the pain, it was frickin' freezing out there, but it felt so good to get out again. That also makes the pain even more disappointing. I had been checking out tights and was ready to take the plunge, but now I feel like I have bigger worries.