"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

They can't do that and then fall back on fallibility when they screw up, as they quite clearly did in 2015.

They didn't "fall back on fallibility". They just changed the policy. That is a discussion we are having.

Exactly. There's fallibility, then there's always being <redacted> wrong. Anyone can make a mistake. 15 men all called as Special Witnesses should probably have a better handle on God's Will than they often seem to.

Hyperbole.

I heard lots of great talks over the weekend. Maybe teaching the gospel is the most important thing they do.

Also, regarding creek's idea that it's God's idea to do revelation like we do, as old_gregg points out, sure, we can say that they're fallible, but, their attitude is to promote that we not question them, that we obey, that we accept everything they say as God's Will.

I hear this argument a lot and I think it misses a fundamental point. Let me explain:

1. Revelation is a process that involves God and humans. Humans are fallible, therefore the process will never be perfect. By definition. A prophet does not become a god when he becomes a prophet. This has always been the case. I think any sincere, thoughtful person would agree with this.

2. If a prophet claims to be an oracle for God, to speak "God's Will", or that we should follow him, that is NOT a claim of infallibility. See item 1.

3. A prophet can say something followed by "Thus saith the Lord" and still be wrong. See item 1.


"We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.' In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak." -- J. Rebuen Clark, 1954:

A particularly eloquent expression of this principle came from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, who encouraged us to “be kind regarding human frailty—your own as well as that of those who serve with you in a Church led by volunteer, mortal men and women. Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we.”

Mason, Patrick Q.. Planted . Deseret Book. Kindle Edition.

Wuap, I was sad and frustrated with this policy from the very start. I am thrilled it has been rescinded. But it doesn't change my love and respect for the church leaders. They are wonderful people doing the best they can and I believe that on the whole my life has been immeasurably better when I swallow my pride and try to follow their counsel and advice. I am sorry you have come to a different conclusion, but I wish you the best.

[Uncle Ted]

I figure I will be saving an extra $4.00 a day for all the coffee and tea I won't be buying... Thanks President Nelson!

[Uncle Ted]

No applause, please.

Yes, I just bowed my head and said a little prayer of gratitude instead.

[Moliere]

I was at dinner with my son before the priesthood session. He asked me if I had heard about the reversal of the policy. I told him I had. He then asked me what I thought about it because he was trying to figure out how a policy implemented by a prophet could get reversed so quickly. I have him my opinion which isn’t too far off from Lebowski’s opinion. Just interesting that it also went against what he is taught in both seminary, Sunday school and YM.

[LVAllen]

I was at dinner with my son before the priesthood session. He asked me if I had heard about the reversal of the policy. I told him I had. He then asked me what I thought about it because he was trying to figure out how a policy implemented by a prophet could get reversed so quickly. I have him my opinion which isn’t too far off from Lebowski’s opinion. Just interesting that it also went against what he is taught in both seminary, Sunday school and YM.

When I was a youth, probably one of the "scriptures" most often quoted at me was the excerpt below Official Declaration 1 from Wilford Woodruff about how "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place".

I have no problem with the concept that the leadership of the Church struggle to divine the will of the Lord at times, but they do their best to do so and try to make righteous decisions about their respective stewardships. As such, even when they feel that their course has been blessed by the Spirit, they might get things wrong. But that's a narrative that the Church has only very rarely acknowledged, since it puts Apostles on essentially the same footing as your ward Sunday School President. If they, with their many years of church service and association with the Spirit, can get things wrong, and do so while being perfectly united. . . Was there not one among the 15 who felt the Spirit pulling them in a different direction?

[creekster]

IMO, some of you are reasoning backwards from your decision. The GAs do not claim infallibility. They claim they should be followed. Those are not the same things. We aren't told to follow them because they are infallible, we are told to follow them because they have authority, despite their fallibility. We all know this. One might make an argument based on these actual principles, but the argument most of you are making about fallibility is against a misstated and misleading version of reality, and really isn't worth going through again.

The rest of the arguments here are, really, just quibbles around the edges. The adequacy of the speed, alacrity and certainty with which the policy was changed, or the depth of error of the prior midway point policy (and it was a midway point, we should not forget that when considering why it may have happened they way it did) are very subjective and individual questions that really have little bearing, IMO, on the larger church-wide issues.

Like JL, I am delighted for the change. I am most happy, to be honest, that the new policy makes clear that orientation is not, in itself, a sin. I think this specific acknowledgment will go a long way in helping all levels of leadership implement better and more loving policies in the future.

[Pelado]

IMO, some of you are reasoning backwards from your decision. The GAs do not claim infallibility. They claim they should be followed. Those are not the same things. We aren't told to follow them because they are infallible, we are told to follow them because they have authority, despite their fallibility. We all know this. One might make an argument based on these actual principles, but the argument most of you are making about fallibility is against a misstated and misleading version of reality, and really isn't worth going through again.

The rest of the arguments here are, really, just quibbles around the edges. The adequacy of the speed, alacrity and certainty with which the policy was changed, or the depth of error of the prior midway point policy (and it was a midway point, we should not forget that when considering why it may have happened they way it did) are very subjective and individual questions that really have little bearing, IMO, on the larger church-wide issues.

Like JL, I am delighted for the change. I am most happy, to be honest, that the new policy makes clear that orientation is not, in itself, a sin. I think this specific acknowledgment will go a long way in helping all levels of leadership implement better and more loving policies in the future.

Thanks for the vocabulary word.

[swampfrog]

I've written similar things before, but here's a summary of the perspective I try to take. There are 3 main components that I have separated in my mind, the gospel, the religion, and the church. The gospel is essential teachings that I break into two categories, how to live in the world such that your life is purposeful, and how to take advantage of the atonement of Christ. Both of these are actually a lot more complicated than one wants them to be. The world is a complicated and messy place. Humans are complicated beings. In order to live purposefully and endure to the end there are competing values that have to be correctly aligned, for example justice versus mercy, or compassion versus self-reliance. When the values are incorrectly aligned, short term or long term disaster awaits--personal and societal. Keeping the pendulum in the middle is no easy task.

Since the gospel must provide the instruction on how to walk a narrow path between opposing values, it is a constant process of course correction--personal and societal. It cannot be stagnant because people and society are not stagnant. The gospel exists because figuring out on one's own how to live a meaningful (happy/joyous) life is rarely possible without instruction and examples. There is much about finding meaning that is not intuitive and takes time and effort. Evolution has left some base instincts for survival that are not conducive to long term happiness. These instincts can be overridden with care and patience with the help of community. The natural man is an enemy to God.

Humans learn by narrative (Christ taught in parables). When narrative is joined with exemplary behavior modeled in the community, the gospel is transmitted effectively to the rising generation. Tradition is passed from generation to generation. The gospel is composed of the teaching and stories that model how to stay balanced on a difficult path. We often take for granted how much moral programming is installed after birth. We like to think of ourselves as innately moral, but we're likely not. (See Moral Foundation Theory) The human psyche is corruptible and can be swayed too easily to heinous behaviors, especially if instilled in the very young. Hitler's youth is not an anomaly. Evolution has left a mess of instinctual immoral behaviors that can be triggered more easily than is realized.

Religion is the codified gospel. The teaching and stories are transcribed and formally communicated. It's comprised of scripture, parables, stories, life examples, etc. Since transmission is not just through words, religion is also the embodiment of the gospel through action. Sacraments, rites, ceremony, practices, etc. The physical embodiment of the ideas are required to properly transmit between generations. Since life is tragic, finding a meaningful path is not a straightforward thought exercise. It has to be cultivated through teaching and modeling. Religion exists to preserve the gospel.

As religion encapsulates the gospel, but isn't the gospel, a church encapsulates the religion, but is not the religion. It's main purpose is to preserve the religion. Its function is to keep the stories and models alive for future generations. It creates policies and procedures to enable the installation of the religion in the rising generation. It is religion organized. It enables religious communities to operate.

Since a church's primary responsibility is preservation of moral software including a very delicate installation, change must be always considered carefully. The core problems are that no software is perfect and the installation is long and difficult. The gospel precepts are sometimes wrong, the stories are not always precise or properly related to a new generation. The religion and church also age and are corruptible. All three components are prone to become obsolete and always contain some level of error. When you have conceptual error encapsulated by multiple layers whose primary purpose is preservation, the inevitable result is the preservation of some error. Since the transmission is never exact, new error is also introduced generationally. Revelation is the discovery of error. To reveal is to uncover.

A religion that is constantly in the process of updating itself and fixing past errors (regardless of how recently inserted) is exactly what I expect.

[cougjunkie]

I've written similar things before, but here's a summary of the perspective I try to take. There are 3 main components that I have separated in my mind, the gospel, the religion, and the church. The gospel is essential teachings that I break into two categories, how to live in the world such that your life is purposeful, and how to take advantage of the atonement of Christ. Both of these are actually a lot more complicated than one wants them to be. The world is a complicated and messy place. Humans are complicated beings. In order to live purposefully and endure to the end there are competing values that have to be correctly aligned, for example justice versus mercy, or compassion versus self-reliance. When the values are incorrectly aligned, short term or long term disaster awaits--personal and societal. Keeping the pendulum in the middle is no easy task.

Since the gospel must provide the instruction on how to walk a narrow path between opposing values, it is a constant process of course correction--personal and societal. It cannot be stagnant because people and society are not stagnant. The gospel exists because figuring out on one's own how to live a meaningful (happy/joyous) life is rarely possible without instruction and examples. There is much about finding meaning that is not intuitive and takes time and effort. Evolution has left some base instincts for survival that are not conducive to long term happiness. These instincts can be overridden with care and patience with the help of community. The natural man is an enemy to God.

Humans learn by narrative (Christ taught in parables). When narrative is joined with exemplary behavior modeled in the community, the gospel is transmitted effectively to the rising generation. Tradition is passed from generation to generation. The gospel is composed of the teaching and stories that model how to stay balanced on a difficult path. We often take for granted how much moral programming is installed after birth. We like to think of ourselves as innately moral, but we're likely not. (See Moral Foundation Theory) The human psyche is corruptible and can be swayed too easily to heinous behaviors, especially if instilled in the very young. Hitler's youth is not an anomaly. Evolution has left a mess of instinctual immoral behaviors that can be triggered more easily than is realized.

Religion is the codified gospel. The teaching and stories are transcribed and formally communicated. It's comprised of scripture, parables, stories, life examples, etc. Since transmission is not just through words, religion is also the embodiment of the gospel through action. Sacraments, rites, ceremony, practices, etc. The physical embodiment of the ideas are required to properly transmit between generations. Since life is tragic, finding a meaningful path is not a straightforward thought exercise. It has to be cultivated through teaching and modeling. Religion exists to preserve the gospel.

As religion encapsulates the gospel, but isn't the gospel, a church encapsulates the religion, but is not the religion. It's main purpose is to preserve the religion. Its function is to keep the stories and models alive for future generations. It creates policies and procedures to enable the installation of the religion in the rising generation. It is religion organized. It enables religious communities to operate.

Since a church's primary responsibility is preservation of moral software including a very delicate installation, change must be always considered carefully. The core problems are that no software is perfect and the installation is long and difficult. The gospel precepts are sometimes wrong, the stories are not always precise or properly related to a new generation. The religion and church also age and are corruptible. All three components are prone to become obsolete and always contain some level of error. When you have conceptual error encapsulated by multiple layers whose primary purpose is preservation, the inevitable result is the preservation of some error. Since the transmission is never exact, new error is also introduced generationally. Revelation is the discovery of error. To reveal is to uncover.

A religion that is constantly in the process of updating itself and fixing past errors (regardless of how recently inserted) is exactly what I expect.

My belief is Hopfrog got up there and said Yo God time for some change. Bam, revelation to Russ and we are progressive again. I like that version better. Look at the timing of it all.

[creekster]

This popped up in my twitter feed in a different context but I thought it might be helpful here:

Embedded Tweet

[swampfrog]

My belief is Hopfrog got up there and said Yo God time for some change. Bam, revelation to Russ and we are progressive again. I like that version better. Look at the timing of it all.

Could be. Anyone interested in his views on Mormonism should read his interview here. He had his full blessings restored a little while ago.

[cougjunkie]

Could be. Anyone interested in his views on Mormonism should read his interview here. He had his full blessings restored a little while ago.

I have read that before and I loved this line:

One thing that really bugged me was how disgruntled members of the ward would come to me to complain about policy regarding gay marriage and all of that boring stuff. It was like I was expected to stand there in the foyer and “trash” the church with these angry self-righteous fools. The spirit of contention is SO non-fabulous.

A lot of members on this board should read that.

[Green Monstah]

I honestly don't know how you stay in the church if you think that the leadership is anything more than a bunch of dedicated human beings trying their damnedest to do what God wants them to do, usually through the process of trial and error.

If you really think Jesus is talking to the GAs face to face, I simply don't see how you make it all work.

[Donuthole]

I honestly don't know how you stay in the church if you think that the leadership is anything more than a bunch of dedicated human beings trying their damnedest to do what God wants them to do, usually through the process of trial and error.

If you really think Jesus is talking to the GAs face to face, I simply don't see how you make it all work.

That's funny. I had almost the exact opposite sentiment--ok, not almost. the exact opposite sentiment--expressed to me this weekend, through casual discourse. The comment was something like this:

"Why would anyone ever want to belong to this church if they didn't agree and understand that these men receive direct revelation from God. If you don't believe they are speaking for God, but are just nice men trying to do the right thing, wouldn't your membership in the church seem like a complete charade?"

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've written similar things before, but here's a summary of the perspective I try to take. There are 3 main components that I have separated in my mind, the gospel, the religion, and the church. The gospel is essential teachings that I break into two categories, how to live in the world such that your life is purposeful, and how to take advantage of the atonement of Christ. Both of these are actually a lot more complicated than one wants them to be. The world is a complicated and messy place. Humans are complicated beings. In order to live purposefully and endure to the end there are competing values that have to be correctly aligned, for example justice versus mercy, or compassion versus self-reliance. When the values are incorrectly aligned, short term or long term disaster awaits--personal and societal. Keeping the pendulum in the middle is no easy task.

Since the gospel must provide the instruction on how to walk a narrow path between opposing values, it is a constant process of course correction--personal and societal. It cannot be stagnant because people and society are not stagnant. The gospel exists because figuring out on one's own how to live a meaningful (happy/joyous) life is rarely possible without instruction and examples. There is much about finding meaning that is not intuitive and takes time and effort. Evolution has left some base instincts for survival that are not conducive to long term happiness. These instincts can be overridden with care and patience with the help of community. The natural man is an enemy to God.

Humans learn by narrative (Christ taught in parables). When narrative is joined with exemplary behavior modeled in the community, the gospel is transmitted effectively to the rising generation. Tradition is passed from generation to generation. The gospel is composed of the teaching and stories that model how to stay balanced on a difficult path. We often take for granted how much moral programming is installed after birth. We like to think of ourselves as innately moral, but we're likely not. (See Moral Foundation Theory) The human psyche is corruptible and can be swayed too easily to heinous behaviors, especially if instilled in the very young. Hitler's youth is not an anomaly. Evolution has left a mess of instinctual immoral behaviors that can be triggered more easily than is realized.

Religion is the codified gospel. The teaching and stories are transcribed and formally communicated. It's comprised of scripture, parables, stories, life examples, etc. Since transmission is not just through words, religion is also the embodiment of the gospel through action. Sacraments, rites, ceremony, practices, etc. The physical embodiment of the ideas are required to properly transmit between generations. Since life is tragic, finding a meaningful path is not a straightforward thought exercise. It has to be cultivated through teaching and modeling. Religion exists to preserve the gospel.

As religion encapsulates the gospel, but isn't the gospel, a church encapsulates the religion, but is not the religion. It's main purpose is to preserve the religion. Its function is to keep the stories and models alive for future generations. It creates policies and procedures to enable the installation of the religion in the rising generation. It is religion organized. It enables religious communities to operate.

Since a church's primary responsibility is preservation of moral software including a very delicate installation, change must be always considered carefully. The core problems are that no software is perfect and the installation is long and difficult. The gospel precepts are sometimes wrong, the stories are not always precise or properly related to a new generation. The religion and church also age and are corruptible. All three components are prone to become obsolete and always contain some level of error. When you have conceptual error encapsulated by multiple layers whose primary purpose is preservation, the inevitable result is the preservation of some error. Since the transmission is never exact, new error is also introduced generationally. Revelation is the discovery of error. To reveal is to uncover.

A religion that is constantly in the process of updating itself and fixing past errors (regardless of how recently inserted) is exactly what I expect.

Excellent post as usual. Thanks.

The bolded part is an important insight. In so many of these discussions, people often exclaim, "How could they miss that? They should have known better!". We always seem to overstate how obvious things should have been in hindsight. Furthermore, I think there is a lot of hubris in implying that we have everything figured out and that social and cultural changes are on a steady upward arc. Churches are conservative for a very good reason.