"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

How are they better? Under what circumstances should their words be given more weight than my neighbor or the mayor or Oprah?

Let’s suppose God appeared to you tonight in a vision and said,


“Hey, Russell M. Nelson is my prophet so I want you to pay attention to what he says and follow it the best you can. He is human, so some of his biases and human frailties might muddy the waters from time to time in spite of his best efforts. But don’t worry, I have given you the power of discernment and the Holy Ghost to help you. This will require some effort on your part, but I want you to trust him and give him the benefit of the doubt as my mouthpiece. I promise you that I will bless you if you do so.”


Would you respond, “Sorry God. “If it’s not a perfect transmission of your will, then I am sticking with Oprah and Twitter.”?

[swampfrog]

When the hindsight stuff is ..


Oh, well blacks arent really less valiant we taught for decades
Oh, gays shouldn't be tortured to not be gay


Uh yes if they are directed from God they should be able to see maybe they are wrong.

These two points and several others is why I don't always succeed in agreeing with myself. Errors do cause actual harm. Not having religion could be worse. Life is truly messy.

[Jeff Lebowski]

When the hindsight stuff is ..


Oh, well blacks arent really less valiant we taught for decades
Oh, gays shouldn't be tortured to not be gay


Uh yes if they are directed from God they should be able to see maybe they are wrong.

I think this topic is like freedom of speech. Everybody supports it in principle, but once you start applying it to real-world examples, that support gets shaky.

(I am ignoring the obvious hyperbole in your second example)

[Maximus]

I think this topic is like freedom of speech. Everybody supports it in principle, but once you start applying it to real-world examples, that support gets shaky.

(I am ignoring the obvious hyperbole in your second example)

Ok ..shock therapy, maybe I shouldnt say torture.

Point is the church has never had any idea on how to deal with gays

[clackamascoug]

I have never said that and I am quite sure creekster has never said that either.

I think they are vastly better than "any random joe" at divining the will of God. That still doesn't make them perfect.

I'll take this one.

The path to prophet is not a humble one. You begin with a off the charts smart youth - pepper him with loads of education, most likely at the advanced education level - sprinkle in a gorgeous wife for the up and coming "man on the move." Settle into raising kids - and excelling at a professional career - Bishop by 35 - Stake President by 45 - Regional Rep/General Authority - more professional success - big house, nice car - speaking before hundreds of people, hundreds even thousands of times. Brown nosers - female admirers - glad handers - big smiles - center of attention - year after year after year. It takes thirty years of this fawning attention -just to get to the Q12. Once your in the inner circle - your star explodes and people want to read your book so they can get to know you better. All the while - you strive to stay humble and be the good person your perceived to be.

After the Q12 rookie hazing - you begin to feel comfortable with the group. First you raise you hand with a contrary point of view "to balance things out" and the next thing you know other apostles are agreeing with you on the private Q12 chat board late at night. An old guy dies - you act remorseful but in your heart you know you're one more step up the rung. Three guys died this year and three more "stars" take their place below you. Your committee assignment get better and better, and you begin to hear the hum of the engine that runs the church. Another death - and you're in the first presidency! You're now walking the halls with your head held a little higher - you're got pin codes and a Black AMEX. People watch from afar chart your path to the top and lay odds on you outliving the men around you - odds look good in your favor - you could be the "man" someday. All of this has happened to you your whole life, and yet you're expected to be so humble that you can hear the voice of the Lord 24/7.

Give me an average joe farmer that prays each day for his family and his crops - and has a little mud on his church shoes because a cow got out 20 minutes before church started. That man - average as he is - will be just as in tune with the Spirit as the fast tracking, fast talking lawyer who can spell bind a room.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ok ..shock therapy, maybe I shouldnt say torture.

Point is the church has never had any idea on how to deal with gays

In other words, you are OK if God lets them make little mistakes, but God shouldn't let them make what you consider to be big mistakes.

Or put another way, the level of trust and faith you have built up is struggling to surmount the cognitive dissonance you feel when facing such troubling issues.

I get it. Faith can be a struggle.

[Green Monstah]

In other words, you are OK if God lets them make little mistakes, but God shouldn't let them make what you consider to be big mistakes.

Or put another way, the level of trust and faith you have built up is struggling to surmount the cognitive dissonance you feel when facing such troubling issues.

I get it. Faith can be a struggle.

Or you can acknowledge that mistakes--big or little--are going to occur because they don't really have a direct line to the Big Man. Like all of us, they're just doing the best they know how, and are subject to their own biases, culture, and experience.

[creekster]

I'll take this one.

The path to prophet is not a humble one. You begin with a off the charts smart youth - pepper him with loads of education, most likely at the advanced education level - sprinkle in a gorgeous wife for the up and coming "man on the move." Settle into raising kids - and excelling at a professional career - Bishop by 35 - Stake President by 45 - Regional Rep/General Authority - more professional success - big house, nice car - speaking before hundreds of people, hundreds even thousands of times. Brown nosers - female admirers - glad handers - big smiles - center of attention - year after year after year. It takes thirty years of this fawning attention -just to get to the Q12. Once your in the inner circle - your star explodes and people want to read your book so they can get to know you better. All the while - you strive to stay humble and be the good person your perceived to be.

After the Q12 rookie hazing - you begin to feel comfortable with the group. First you raise you hand with a contrary point of view "to balance things out" and the next thing you know other apostles are agreeing with you on the private Q12 chat board late at night. An old guy dies - you act remorseful but in your heart you know you're one more step up the rung. Three guys died this year and three more "stars" take their place below you. Your committee assignment get better and better, and you begin to hear the hum of the engine that runs the church. Another death - and you're in the first presidency! You're now walking the halls with your head held a little higher - you're got pin codes and a Black AMEX. People watch from afar chart your path to the top and lay odds on you outliving the men around you - odds look good in your favor - you could be the "man" someday. All of this has happened to you your whole life, and yet you're expected to be so humble that you can hear the voice of the Lord 24/7.

Give me an average joe farmer that prays each day for his family and his crops - and has a little mud on his church shoes because a cow got out 20 minutes before church started. That man - average as he is - will be just as in tune with the Spirit as the fast tracking, fast talking lawyer who can spell bind a room.

Maybe, maybe not. But you're answering a question that isn't being asked. First, while you describe the dynamics of a typical progression in an organization, I don't think this is what happens in the Church. I think the leaders are largely humble and earnest and doing their best to stay that way. There are certainly exceptions and, as I think we all concede here (and as they freely admit), they are far from perfect, but they are far better than your typical corporate org chart festival participants.

Second, not only is your premise flawed, but it is also irrelevant. Even if they all tend to be power hungry rung climbers, it is not at all clear to me how that supposedly induced them to come up with the 2015 policy or to adopt the 2019 change.

Third, your other premise, that success in life or at church prevents one from being humble in spirit is also flawed. It's hard for the camel to get through the gate, but not impossible. This also seems to bear little relationship to the issues being discussed.

Fourth, there is the issue of authority/caling/order to God's kingdom. The prophet has the keys, mud-shoe Joe does not.

Finally, what is your point, exactly? Of course anyone can be as close to the spirit as the prophet. They can also be just as susceptible to error as the prophet. That's why we are all told to seek our own witness. We are all, ultimately, accountable to God for our own actions.

[creekster]

Or you can acknowledge that mistakes--big or little--are going to occur because they don't really have a direct line to the Big Man. Like all of us, they're just doing the best they know how, and are subject to their own biases, culture, and experience.

They have as direct a line as God wants them to have. I have previously compared this to a once popular (but now admittedly set aside) evolutionary theory called Punctuated Equilibrium. Revelation is not a telephone. It is always on, but sometimes it is a lot clearer than others and sometimes it isnt as helpful as they might like. And yes, they are subject to bias and background like us, but they remain called to do what they do.

[ScoopJahoop]

Let’s suppose God appeared to you tonight in a vision and said,


“Hey, Russell M. Nelson is my prophet so I want you to pay attention to what he says and follow it the best you can. He is human, so some of his biases and human frailties might muddy the waters from time to time in spite of his best efforts. But don’t worry, I have given you the power of discernment and the Holy Ghost to help you. This will require some effort on your part, but I want you to trust him and give him the benefit of the doubt as my mouthpiece. I promise you that I will bless you if you do so.”


Would you respond, “Sorry God. “If it’s not a perfect transmission of your will, then I am sticking with Oprah and Twitter.”?

No, that won’t be my response if that happens.
How wrong/imperfect would he/they have to be for you to question their worth?

[Maximus]

In other words, you are OK if God lets them make little mistakes, but God shouldn't let them make what you consider to be big mistakes.

Or put another way, the level of trust and faith you have built up is struggling to surmount the cognitive dissonance you feel when facing such troubling issues.

I get it. Faith can be a struggle.

I'll be honest...I think Nelson has as much connection to God as the pope. I think the gay issue is one thing that exposes the facade.

[Green Monstah]

They have as direct a line as God wants them to have. I have previously compared this to a once popular (but now admittedly set aside) evolutionary theory called Punctuated Equilibrium. Revelation is not a telephone. It is always on, but sometimes it is a lot clearer than others and sometimes it isnt as helpful as they might like. And yes, they are subject to bias and background like us, but they remain called to do what they do.

Doesn't it seem like a cruel joke, though? One of the reasons I hope I never have to teach D&C is that it is chalk full of false prophecies. It is Exhibits 1-138 that prophets are simply not that different than the rest of us.

[creekster]

Doesn't it seem like a cruel joke, though? One of the reasons I hope I never have to teach D&C is that it is chalk full of false prophecies. It is Exhibits 1-138 that prophets are simply not that different than the rest of us.

No, I don't think it is cruel. I also disagree that the D&C is full of false prophecies. Although I will say there are things in the D&C that I personally have a hard time with, btu that does not necessarily mean they are wrong, although it could. But that will be on me.

I also find much that is profound and inspiring in the D&C. God's word through a man's voice. Sometimes so clear that the power is undeniable, sometimes less so. I am not a very spiritual person, and I am by nature very cynical. Even so, when I taught the D&C I had no problem finding good and wise and inspirational material to discuss.

[Goatnapper'96]

Rapid change is just as much the enemy as no change.

You are the first person I actually look forward to read because of the content of your posts. If you had fake boobs, you would be perfect!

[Jeff Lebowski]

No, that won’t be my response if that happens.
How wrong/imperfect would he/they have to be for you to question their worth?

Good question. I don't know. But that is not really the foundation of my faith. I have tons of things like that that make me doubt and that don't make sense, but I consider them all to be secondary issues. I would say my faith is stronger than at any other point in my life.