Does porn = adultery?

[tooblue]

I'm sure I am getting a completely distorted picture, but you sound like an immature rabid religious fanatic who will someday have major crisis of faith and end up guzzling Colt 45 while franticly dropping coins in the peep-show booth in the nearest major city.

If you think Playboy's Jenny McCarthy or Cindy Crawford or Kim Kardashian is exploited and Leroy the 47 year old chubby doorman subscriber living in a studio in the Bronx is the exploitee, you are living in a dream world.

Pornography is a $4 billion dollar industry. Are you really saying that money is "part and parcel" with the child exploitation snuff films coming out of southeast asia? You really think buying Penthouse from the street vendor is supporting child porn? Link? Evidence? Cite?

You sound crazy. I hope you stay away from all major museums as the Rodins and Titans would probably send you over the edge.

Would you say this is art?

http://www.danheller.com/images/Unit...issers-big.jpg

or this:

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload...3-75771584f022

How about this?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...US303%26sa%3DN

or this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tizian_012.jpg



I'm not a fan of porn. My favorite article on pornography is:
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

Actually I'm a victim of sexual abuse who has spent a good deal of time in counseling and who is not afraid to speak out against the ignorant and insensitive.

I am also an artist who teaches life drawing courses with nude models to animation students. One of my favorite sculptors after Henry Moore is Rodin. In fact I've seen most of the works of art you linked to in person as I make a habit of visiting museums every where I visit.

Yes, I am saying they are part and parcel. Funny you should mention Penthouse. In recent court cases in Canada (past 10 years) the money put forward to defend the accused in several child porn cases came from a coalition of so-called soft-core owners and proprietors -- one of which was Penthouse The result of those court cases, prolonged by the access to serious amounts of money, is a ruling that protects the right to own child pornography in Canada!

By the way, who are the biggest purchasers of prostitution services in South East Asia where there is the largest numbers of child prostitutes? Westerners from Europe and North America.

[tooblue]

Link to an article that is no longer on line and that you might find interesting:

Reports of Child Pornography to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children Continue to Rise

January 27, 2005
Distribution Source: PRNewswire

ALEXANDRIA, Va., Jan. 27 /PRNewswire/ -- New statistics released today by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) show child pornography reports to its CyberTipline, a congressionally mandated mechanism for reporting child sexual exploitation, jumped 39 percent in 2004. Since the CyberTipline was established in 1998, reports of these illegal images have dramatically increased every year.

"This is the seventh year that our statistics show a significant and steady increase in child pornography reports to the CyberTipline. This upward trend is very disturbing and shows the seriousness of this issue," said Ernie Allen, president and CEO of NCMEC. "The images transmitted on the Internet portray brutal sexual assaults of children and the harm does not end upon completion of the assault. Every time a child pornography image is sent out on the Web, that child is victimized again."

Year Child Pornography Tips

1998 3,267
1999 7,736
2000 16,724
2001 21,611
2002 37,647
2003 76,178
2004 106,119

NCMEC believes the growth in reports can be attributed, in part, to new technologies including digital cameras and videos and peer-to-peer networking as well as an increased public awareness about the issue and a federal law [42 U.S.C. 13032(b) (1)] requiring ISPs to report incidents of child pornography to the CyberTipline. However, only 142 of the more than 3,000 electronic communications service providers in the U.S comply with the federal law.

"ISPs have been instrumental in helping law enforcement crack down on child predators," said Allen. "We are encouraged by their participation, but there are thousands more that should be joining this effort to keep children safer."

Since 1998, NCMEC has handled more than 300,000 reports of all types of child sexual exploitation including child pornography, child molestation (outside the family), child prostitution, online enticement of children, child sex tourism, unsolicited obscene material sent to a child, and the federally mandated reports of child pornography from Internet Service Providers (ISPs). While fighting child sexual exploitation is a tough battle, NCMEC's CyberTipline has had success in helping law enforcement solve many of these cases.

CyberTipline Success Story: In October 2003, the CyberTipline received multiple reports concerning an individual who was allegedly posting illegal content to an ISP group. CyberTipline analysts reviewed the reports and found numerous images of child erotica. Searches on the suspect's e-mail accounts established a possible name and location. Analysts contacted the Douglas County Sheriff's Office in Colorado and in March of 2004, investigators from the Westminster Police Department executed a search warrant on the suspect's home. They found 500 pornographic images of children and over 80,000 images of child erotica on the suspect's computer. Investigators also discovered that suspect had a prior history of crimes against children in both Florida and Texas. On October 1, 2004, the suspect pled guilty to one count of Sexual Exploitation of Children, a Class 4 Felony. He was sentenced to 10 years-to- life requiring that he spend a minimum of 10 years in prison without parole.

BACKGROUND: The CyberTipline is operated by NCMEC in partnership with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Postal Inspection Service, U.S. Department of Justice's Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section and the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Forces, along with state and local law enforcement.

Citizens who have information that will help in the fight against child sexual exploitation should contact the CyberTipline by calling 1-800-843-5678 or go online to http://www.cybertipline.com/. Leads will be forwarded to law enforcement for investigation and review, and, when appropriate, to the ISP.

About the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children

NCMEC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, which serves as a national clearinghouse for information and a resource for child protection. It works in cooperation with the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. NCMEC's congressionally mandated CyberTipline, a reporting mechanism for child sexual exploitation, has handled more than 300,000 leads. Since its establishment in 1984, NCMEC has assisted law enforcement with more than 104,000 missing child cases, resulting in the recovery of more than 89,000 children. For more information, please visit http://www.cybertipline.com/ or call toll-free 1-800-THE-LOST.

National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
CONTACT: National Center for Missing & Exploited Children Communications
Department, +1-703-837-6111

Web site: http://www.ncmec.org/
http://www.cybertipline.com/

[SeattleUte]

I am guessing that you didn't actually read the article. Correct?

Okay, I read it. I said "porn addiction."

[tooblue]

An interesting graphic:

Have to remove the graphic as I don't have permission of John's Hopkins University to post it here ... If you want to see the details again I will send them to you in a PM.

[RobinFinderson]

Tooblue,

I don't think porn is a big deal at all, but at the same time, I certainly don't want to contribute to, either by consumption or through argumentation here, an industry that abuses children.

If you can REALLY make the case for the connection between Hustler's Barely Legal videos (and I am intentionally picking the sleaziest NAMED popular product that I am aware of) and the direct abuse of children, then I would be willing to change my view. Seriously.

But it needs to be a direct connection. For example:

I realize my gas dollars help prop up petro-dictators, but that isn't enough for me to stop using gasoline.

I realize my tax dollars make dropping bombs on children (collateral damage?) possible, but I still pay my taxes.

I realize that eating so much turkey that I have to sit on the couch for an hour watching television with my belt and top button undone is obscene in a world with starvation, but I still celebrate Thanksgiving.

In other words, there is hardly a thing in America that we touch that doesn't have the blood of some innocent on it, and if that is what you are talking about, then I will add it to my collective guilt and move on, but it won't change my view.

But, on the other hand, if you can show me that commercial porn is a front for the sexual molestation of children, I would join your crusade.

[tooblue]

Tooblue,

I don't think porn, in moderation, is not a big deal at all, but at the same time, I certainly don't want to contribute to, either by consumption or through argumentation here, an industry that abuses children.

If you can REALLY make the case for the connection between Hustler's Barely Legal videos (and I am intentionally picking the sleaziest NAMED popular product that I am aware of) and the direct abuse of children, then I would be willing to change my view. Seriously.

But it needs to be a direct connection. For example:

I realize my gas dollars help prop up petro-dictators, but that isn't enough for me to stop using gasoline.

I realize my tax dollars make dropping bombs on children (collateral damage?) possible, but I still pay my taxes.

I realize that eating so much turkey that I have to sit on the couch for an hour watching television with my belt and top button undone is obscene in a world with starvation, but I still celebrate Thanksgiving.

In other words, there is hardly a thing in America that we touch that doesn't have the blood of some innocent on it, and if that is what you are talking about, then I will add it to my collective guilt and move on, but it won't change my view.

But, on the other hand, if you can show me that commercial porn is a front for the sexual molestation of children, I would join your crusade.

The connections you make above are abstract and silly, and offensive in context to this discussion. Why is it so hard to imagine that the amount of child porn and prostitution is proportional to the amount of adult porn and prostitution? And that the same people who create adult porn support with money the same people who create child porn in the name of protecting free speech.

You are making the mistake of believing this is a problem that does not exist here in North America -- link to graphic from earlier:

http://www.c-a-s-e.net/Child%20Trafficking%20Map.htm

The other report I posted is important because it shows just how vast and pervasive the problem is ... how much child porn exists for there to be "106,119" tips in 2004?

Seriously Robin, you want a sign? The very fact that you have even responded this way betrays your indifference. You don't want proof -- what you want is an excuse to ignore this issue.

[tooblue]

Tooblue,

I don't think porn is a big deal at all, but at the same time, I certainly don't want to contribute to, either by consumption or through argumentation here, an industry that abuses children.

If you can REALLY make the case for the connection between Hustler's Barely Legal videos (and I am intentionally picking the sleaziest NAMED popular product that I am aware of) and the direct abuse of children, then I would be willing to change my view. Seriously.

But it needs to be a direct connection. For example:

I realize my gas dollars help prop up petro-dictators, but that isn't enough for me to stop using gasoline.

I realize my tax dollars make dropping bombs on children (collateral damage?) possible, but I still pay my taxes.

I realize that eating so much turkey that I have to sit on the couch for an hour watching television with my belt and top button undone is obscene in a world with starvation, but I still celebrate Thanksgiving.

In other words, there is hardly a thing in America that we touch that doesn't have the blood of some innocent on it, and if that is what you are talking about, then I will add it to my collective guilt and move on, but it won't change my view.

But, on the other hand, if you can show me that commercial porn is a front for the sexual molestation of children, I would join your crusade.

Look at that map I linked to Robin. It is from John's Hopkins University. Not some fanatical religious organization. Now ask yourself if you really believe those barely legal teens in those videos only started prostituting themselves the day they turned 18? Such naivety would be unfathomable.

[RobinFinderson]

The connections you make above are abstract and silly, and offensive in context to this discussion...The very fact that you have even responded this way betrays your indifference.

Well I'm sorry to offend you.

[tooblue]

Well I'm sorry to offend you.

I'm not offended, I'm dismayed. The majority of Porn actors didn't just decide to make porn films one day after they arrived at the age of consent. Most were created by being exploited in their childhood -- 12 - 14 years old!

[ERCougar]

No it is not. How many actresses also are strippers and go on tour to strip clubs all over North America etc.? How much prostitution is present at or near strip clubs?

Porn actors are paid to have sex. Prostitutes also are paid to have sex.

ER, I know what I am talking about. I have done probono work for a non-profit anti child exploitation organization for years. The two are inextricably linked. You need only look into the law enforcement statistics.

I also know what I'm talking about, as I have volunteered many hours working with those with sexual addictions. I know the potential harmful effects of porn. But I also have seen LDS/religious men who wouldn't see an R-rated movie nor dare touch themselves be caught with prostitutes (on many occasions). There are gradations of evil, and porn isn't even close to the same level as prostitution. Not even close, either in the exploitation of women, the safety of its participants, or in the level of spiritual damage done.

The fact that prostitutes are occasionally near strip clubs (coincidental more than anything, as the two tend to be in the same disctricts of towns) hardly constitutes an "inextricable link". You might as well say cigarette smoking = prostitution.

Yes, porn actors are occasionally paid to have sex, but certainly not in the same way as prostitutes. How many porn actors are prostitutes? How many prostitutes are also porn actors? I don't know the numbers, but I imagine they're fairly distinct "career paths". One of the points the original article makes is that the porn industry offers a much safer and less exploitative alternative to those who might otherwise participate in prostitution.

I'm afraid your involvement in the child exploitation fight, while commendable, has not informed your experience, but colored your judgment. When you have a hammer, everything suddenly becomes a nail. It's a different fight.

[ERCougar]

I guess that depends upon what you consider healthy? Even the most liberal of counseling professionals will tell you that a daily dose of porn is not all that healthy.

Nice insertion of "daily", which was not MRD's point at all. There are plenty of counselors that would advise the use of porn on occasion.

[ERCougar]

Link to an article that is no longer on line and that you might find interesting:

Right. Child exploitation is bad and the internet has made it more possible. That's unfortunate.

[ERCougar]

I'm not offended, I'm dismayed. The majority of Porn actors didn't just decide to make porn films one day after they arrived at the age of consent. Most were created by being exploited in their childhood -- 12 - 14 years old!

Another huge claim without any evidence.

[ERCougar]

I'm not a fan of porn. My favorite article on pornography is:
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

This is a very well-informed article. In working with sexually-addicted people, what is impressive is not the overwhelming libido present. Many have had problems with their sexual relationship at home, as they seek increasingly extreme "highs". Yes, tooblue, very occasionally, this includes children, but this is not the norm. In fact, I'm not sure I've dealt with a single case of someone who got very involved in adult pornography, then suddenly switched tastes to children. They're truly two different worlds, similar to the difference between gay and straight pornography.

Anyway, this is the problem with porn--the escalation with the resultant destruction of the normal sexual appetite. But every person who touches alcohol doesn't become an alcoholic and every person who views porn doesn't become a rapist. In fact, for most, porn becomes a sort of coping mechanism. It's far from ideal, and I think this article does an outstanding job of pointing out the harms, but it's a heck of a lot better than being caught with a prostitute.

[tooblue]

Another huge claim without any evidence.

I'm not sure what your problem is with me but don't let it obscure the evidence presented. Is it your assertion that it's a huge leap for you to imagine that a young woman ONLY started performing sex acts, while getting paid, when she turned 18? You mean to say, you think it's highly unlikely that that same young woman was being paid to perform sex acts for many years before she turned 18? And you need evidence to support such an idea? Your common sense isn't good enough. How about your training as a doctor -- is that good enough?

How about the graphic from John's Hopkins University linked to -- is that good enough to demonstrate that the problem is wide spread?

"statistics released today by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) show child pornography reports to its CyberTipline, a congressionally mandated mechanism for reporting child sexual exploitation, jumped 39 percent in 2004."

You also mean to tell me that the increase linked above by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children is ONLY a new Phenomena? That those numbers can't be trusted. That it's not indicative that this is a wide spread problem that has existed for years before the internet proliferated accessibility to such material -- is that your contention?

You see, ER, you have yet to offer ANY evidence to counter my assertions, and yet continue to claim I offer no evidence when in fact I do, so all I can conclude is that you have a problem with me and your only intent here is derision!