Does porn = adultery?

[ERCougar]

One more thing I just thought of...
This concept of porn ruining normal sexual appetite reminds me of one of my favorite books:
http://www.amazon.com/Wanting-More-C...8573250&sr=8-1

It's written by an LDS author (who specializes in sexual addiction, incidentally), but is written from a very secular perspective. His point is that we ruin our "enjoyment machinery" (I think that's the term he uses) by continually satisfying it, and thus we lose our capacity for happiness. He applies this to many areas of life, from eating to material possessions to sex. It's a quick easy read, full of great examples, and I'm a little surprised it hasn't taken a little stronger hold in the LDS book scene. Although not completely surprised, as I suspect it's not a real popular message to LDS materialists.

[tooblue]

Nice insertion of "daily", which was not MRD's point at all. There are plenty of counselors that would advise the use of porn on occasion.

Why don't you let MRD speak for himself? And maybe the insertion of daily is in large part sarcasm ... and maybe my response was point to the ridiculousness of comparing apples and oranges ... or does your dislike for me, personally, not permit you to read anything into a post beyond what you choose to deride.

Where is your evidence to support your contentions with my assertions? Derision isn't evidence.

[ERCougar]

I'm not sure what your problem is with me but don't let it obscure the evidence presented. Is it your assertion that it's a huge leap for you to imagine that a young woman ONLY started performing sex acts, while getting paid, when she turned 18? You mean to say, you think it's highly unlikely that that same young woman was being paid to perform sex acts for many years before she turned 18? And you need evidence to support such an idea? Your common sense isn't good enough. How about your training as a doctor -- is that good enough?

How about the graphic from John's Hopkins University linked to -- is that good enough to demonstrate that the problem is wide spread?

"statistics released today by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) show child pornography reports to its CyberTipline, a congressionally mandated mechanism for reporting child sexual exploitation, jumped 39 percent in 2004."

You also mean to tell me that the increase linked above by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children is ONLY a new Phenomena? That those numbers can't be trusted. That it's not indicative that this is a wide spread problem that has existed for years before the internet proliferated accessibility to such material -- is that your contention?

You see, ER, you have yet to offer ANY evidence to counter my assertions, and yet continue to claim I offer no evidence when in fact I do, so all I can conclude is that you have a problem with me and your only intent here is derision!

I don't have a problem with you at all. I have a problem with making huge claims without evidence--which is what you've done by saying most sex workers start before they're 18. Common sense tells me that's more of an exception (particularly given that it's illegal), so I'd say the burden of proof is yours.

I can't see the JH graphic, but based on your caption, I suspect it's again not related to the argument . No one's saying that child exploitation isn't wrong, that it isn't widespread, etc. I'm just saying it's not the same thing as Playboy.

Again, I have no problem with you. I hate the thought of child exploitation, and those who participate in it have a special in hell prepared for them. I'm glad you're participating in the fight against it.

The reason I'm fairly passionate about this topic is that I've seen what black-and-white thinking on this subject can do to people and families. It's not healthy for anyone to pretend that child exploitation is the same as pornography (or even linked). It's this kind of thinking that causes the wife to kick out her husband when she catches him looking at porn, or the husband to beat himself up so badly over it that he says "what the hell?" and pays for an escort. This kind of erroneous thinking is so much more common among religious individuals that I think religious people have a duty to correct it.

[ERCougar]

Why don't you let MRD speak for himself? And maybe the insertion of daily is in large part sarcasm ... and maybe my response was point to the ridiculousness of comparing apples and oranges ... or does your dislike for me, personally, not permit you to read anything into a post beyond what you choose to deride.

Where is your evidence to support your contentions with my assertions? Derision isn't evidence.

Dude, I like you! Where's the derision? I pointed out your straw man (that you admitted to) as a response to your point. That's all.

[tooblue]

I also know what I'm talking about, as I have volunteered many hours working with those with sexual addictions. I know the potential harmful effects of porn. But I also have seen LDS/religious men who wouldn't see an R-rated movie nor dare touch themselves be caught with prostitutes (on many occasions). There are gradations of evil, and porn isn't even close to the same level as prostitution. Not even close, either in the exploitation of women, the safety of its participants, or in the level of spiritual damage done.

The fact that prostitutes are occasionally near strip clubs (coincidental more than anything, as the two tend to be in the same disctricts of towns) hardly constitutes an "inextricable link". You might as well say cigarette smoking = prostitution.

Yes, porn actors are occasionally paid to have sex, but certainly not in the same way as prostitutes. How many porn actors are prostitutes? How many prostitutes are also porn actors? I don't know the numbers, but I imagine they're fairly distinct "career paths". One of the points the original article makes is that the porn industry offers a much safer and less exploitative alternative to those who might otherwise participate in prostitution.

I'm afraid your involvement in the child exploitation fight, while commendable, has not informed your experience, but colored your judgment. When you have a hammer, everything suddenly becomes a nail. It's a different fight.

What is a strip club promoting? Does naked woman dancing on a stage promote smoking or does it promote sex? It's not mere coincidence ER that prostitutes 'happen' to be in the same vicinity or part of town. The two feed on another, and rely on one another to sustain themselves ... that's a fact!

Do you seriously believe that they are separate career paths and not in fact overlapping? Do you seriously contend that porn actors or only occasionally paid to have sex? What is the definition of a porn actor if it is not getting paid to have sex? That makes absolutely no sense.

How many porn actors are stars versus how many of the 'extras' are not? What do the non-stars of the films, the extras, do to earn money when they are not being cast as extras? Do many strip and perform tricks? Did many stars and extras strip and turn tricks before they became actors? Who are the headliners at strip clubs ER?

I think your dislike for me makes me the nail and you would prefer to hammer away instead of engage. Having been the beneficiary of good counseling, based upon my experience here, you would be an inadequate counselor.

[ERCougar]

What is a strip club promoting? Does naked woman dancing on a stage promote smoking or does it promote sex? It's not mere coincidence ER that prostitutes 'happen' to be in the same vicinity or part of town. The two feed on another, and rely on one another to sustain themselves ... that's a fact!

Do you seriously believe that they are separate career paths and not in fact overlapping? Do you seriously contend that porn actors or only occasionally paid to have sex? What is the definition of a porn actor if it is not getting paid to have sex? That makes absolutely no sense.

How many porn actors are stars versus how many of the 'extras' are not? What do the non-stars of the films, the extras, do to earn money when they are not being cast as extras? Do many strip and perform tricks? Did many stars and extras strip and turn tricks before they became actors? Who are the headliners at strip clubs ER?

I think your dislike for me makes me the nail and you would prefer to hammer away instead of engage. Having been the beneficiary of good counseling, based upon my experience here, you would be an inadequate counselor.

Oh, the irony...

I'm done. I can't keep making the same point over and over again.

[tooblue]

I don't have a problem with you at all. I have a problem with making huge claims without evidence--which is what you've done by saying most sex workers start before they're 18. Common sense tells me that's more of an exception (particularly given that it's illegal), so I'd say the burden of proof is yours.

I can't see the JH graphic, but based on your caption, I suspect it's again not related to the argument . No one's saying that child exploitation isn't wrong, that it isn't widespread, etc. I'm just saying it's not the same thing as Playboy.

Again, I have no problem with you. I hate the thought of child exploitation, and those who participate in it have a special in hell prepared for them. I'm glad you're participating in the fight against it.

The reason I'm fairly passionate about this topic is that I've seen what black-and-white thinking on this subject can do to people and families. It's not healthy for anyone to pretend that child exploitation is the same as pornography (or even linked). It's this kind of thinking that causes the wife to kick out her husband when she catches him looking at porn, or the husband to beat himself up so badly over it that he says "what the hell?" and pays for an escort. This kind of erroneous thinking is so much more common among religious individuals that I think religious people have a duty to correct it.

Having personal experience with counseling and having read many good books written by victims informs my opinion on the subject -- Most if not ALL sex workers of any kind were sexually abused. My only agenda here is to increase awareness and get people thinking about the connections. Because none of these issues exists in the neat little bubbles many create for them. They all overlap. To deny the overlaps is equally detrimental as overly fanatical religious attitudes towards the subject.

[Jeff Lebowski]

But every person who touches alcohol doesn't become an alcoholic and every person who views porn doesn't become a rapist. In fact, for most, porn becomes a sort of coping mechanism. It's far from ideal, and I think this article does an outstanding job of pointing out the harms, but it's a heck of a lot better than being caught with a prostitute.

Yeah, that's what I thought was particularly interesting about the article in the Atlantic. While one can't deny that it is an act of infidelity, it actually reduces the amount of violent crime in society. Quite substantially.

Memo to tooblue: I am not saying porn is good. Relax.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think your dislike for me makes me the nail and you would prefer to hammer away instead of engage.

With all due respect, you seem to have quite the persecution complex lately. Your responses often include some sort of "you don't like me" or "everyone thinks I am stupid" angle. I don't understand the defensiveness and I don't think it helps your arguments. In this case, I think ERCougar was quite respectful.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

What is a strip club promoting? Does naked woman dancing on a stage promote smoking or does it promote sex?

Some would say it promotes capitalism.

[TripletDaddy]

I have a question for tooblue. I ask because he has experience/work in this area, while I admittedly have none.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your point. There seems to be an assertion that porn "stars" are all victims? Are you saying that based on your research or volunteer work that the vast majority of porn participants go into the industry under duress or other less-than-ideal circumstances?

The reason I ask is because it seems that in many contemporary circles, porn is actually "cool." It is quite mainstream now. Amateur porn uploaded by couples at home has proliferated the internet. In fact, I read a recent article that said that YouPorn and RedTube are some of the most visited sites on the internet in the USA. These sites consist largely of user-submitted content. Women go to the gym now and can take stripper pole dancing classes as a means to lose weight. You had mentioned Kim Kardashian earlier. Are you saying she didn't strategically and purposefully choose to do Playboy as a means to furthering her career?

I also think of Joe Francis and his GGW empire. True, he is a leech that goes where the drunk women will be. However, these college girls head down to Daytona, South Padre, etc....wanting to get drunk, have sex, and knowing that they will wind up flashing their breasts and hooking up with guys. I don't think it is a stretch to say that some guys really enjoy banging hot chicks and wouldn't mind getting paid a few hundred bucks to do so.

So again, my question, to be clear.....is your experience that there are no legitimate "professional" participants in adult porn? And if you are not claiming it to be an absolute, what would be your best guess as to a percentage of victims vs willing participants?

[RobinFinderson]

Yeah, that's what I thought was particularly interesting about the article in the Atlantic. While one can't deny that it is an act of infidelity, it actually reduces the amount of violent crime in society. Quite substantially.

Memo to tooblue: I am not saying porn is good. Relax.

I don't even think that it HAS to be an act of infidelity (though it often is).

Take infidelity as an abstract idea, where it could apply to a friendship just as easily as to a marriage. Isn't infidelity when two people have some agreed upon understanding of a relationship, but one party is privately acting to undermine the terms of that agreement/understanding?

When porn is used as a substitute for marital sex, that is infidelity.

When porn is used to bring equilibrium to mismatched libidos, it might or might not be infidelity (depending on if it is used secretly, and if used openly would be considered a breach of the couple's 'agreement.')

When porn is used as a 'marital aid,' it is not infidelity at all.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't even think that it HAS to be an act of infidelity (though it often is).

Take infidelity as an abstract idea, where it could apply to a friendship just as easily as to a marriage. Isn't infidelity when two people have some agreed upon understanding of a relationship, but one party is privately acting to undermine the terms of that agreement/understanding?

When porn is used as a substitute for marital sex, that is infidelity.

When porn is used to bring equilibrium to mismatched libidos, it might or might not be infidelity (depending on if it is used secretly, and if used openly would be considered a breach of the couple's 'agreement.')

When porn is used as a 'marital aid,' it is not infidelity at all.

That seems reasonable.

[tooblue]

With all due respect, you seem to have quite the persecution complex lately. Your responses often include some sort of "you don't like me" or "everyone thinks I am stupid" angle. I don't understand the defensiveness and I don't think it helps your arguments. In this case, I think ERCougar was quite respectful.

If you have to start with 'with all due respect' maybe you shouldn't start at all? The only thing I can offer you is the idea that I don't have a persecution complex and don't really care whether I'm liked or not. But many here seem to want me to care! The simple fact you felt compelled to respond this way is indicative of perception.

[ERCougar]

When porn is used as a 'marital aid,' it is not infidelity at all.

I agree that it's not infidelity. I think you have to use caution however--I know of at least one couple (and I'm sure there are others) who got into this initially as something to spice things up, but then felt like it was becoming a requirement to getting turned on, almost like DDD's caricature of it.