Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[creekster]

so is your revelation.

True. And?

[smokymountainrain]

in terms of the argument, I'm kinda liking where HFN is going.

with that, i go back to how i feel about the Q15 in general. just normal dudes who teach good principles from the pulpit and in magazines - as long as they teach good principles, i will keep listening. but in terms of being seers and revelators and shit like that, they are a lot like my bishop who just got released - a great guy who gets inspired to do and say good things. inspired by what or whom? i don't care as long as they help me be better when i follow their inspired advice.

honestly, don't look at them any different from my bishop. and that's fine by me. they are all church leaders doing the same things, probably about the same in terms righteousness, the Q15 just higher up on the ladder.

[old_gregg]

True. And?

and if your revelation is episodic at or near the level of men sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, what makes them unique other than their family histories or propoensity to progress in a corporate hierarchy

[Jeff Lebowski]

Lebowski straw man is that I think god should prevent all bad things and prophets should be omniscient. He’s missing the nuance in the argument, but I get where you are coming from.

My take on this has been that leaders (GAs) should have had some inkling the guy was a predator, which it seems he had some issues even before his call as MTC president. Heck, even my mission president claimed to know who had and didn’t have the spirit with them. I’ve since realized he was just full of crap when he said that.

The spirit of discernment is turning over in his grave.

Irony alert.

When you say, "How could they possibly miss this?", you are implying that they shouldn't make mistakes. I.e., if you agree that they are fallible and can make mistakes, you have to accept the fact that those mistakes can sometimes be big. You can't have it both ways.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

No, that is essentially what you are doing. You are implying that this offense is so egregious, so extraordinary that God **SHOULD** have stopped it.



My neighbor's baby died of cancer, in spite of lots of fasting and prayer. My nephew drowned when he was two years old. Those were pretty awful too.

Was your neighbor’s baby given cancer by a doctor the Q15 assigned them to go to and asked them to sustain as called from God? Again I see a wide gap to cross between your scenarios.

[old_gregg]

I’m pretty sure that the claim of the 1P and Q12 isn’t “sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t!”

this is the real issue. maybe the devotion and deference to hierarchy is the members fault, but we’re not sold gc talks on the basis of wise counsel from guys who mean well and might be inspired or might just have certain experiences and outlooks that shape the words they use. the appeal to authority is not ambiguous and is different from how it is characterized by the smart folks itt

[creekster]

and if your revelation is episodic at or near the level of men sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, what makes them unique other than their family histories or propoensity to progress in a corporate hierarchy

We have sort of gone over this many times, which I think you pointed out before. First, they are in the office. So if God wants to reveal something specific, it goes to them, not you or me or Denver Snuffer. Plus, some of them get a lot of revelation (Joseph Smith) and some of them get some big ones (Spencer Kimball). But not all of them get either and some just sort of fill the role. Second, in that capacity, they do or are likely to receive inspiration and sometimes revelation for the church, as a body.

The sustaining is as much about order and process as it is about 'power.' That said, I think that sometimes they do get specific inspiration and revelation that allows them to do remarkable things.

Btw, i did not say my revelation was at the same frequency as the church leaders. I doubt that is the case. I think I am much more flawed and unwilling to strive to be christ-like than most of them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Was your neighbor’s baby given cancer by a doctor the Q15 assigned them to go to and asked them to sustain as called from God? Again I see a wide gap to cross between your scenarios.

Tell that to the grieving parents.

In both cases, priesthood blessings were give. Are you telling me that the priesthood used to bless those babies was less powerful than the priesthood used by the Q15? Where is that doctrine written?

[falafel]

Tell that to the grieving parents.

In both cases, priesthood blessings were give. Are you telling me that the priesthood used to bless those babies was less powerful than the priesthood used by the Q15? Where is that doctrine written?

Its fun to watch Lewbowski point out straw men and then create his own.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Its fun to watch Lewbowski point out straw men and then create his own.

How is that a strawman?

[creekster]

this is the real issue. maybe the devotion and deference to hierarchy is the members fault, but we’re not sold gc talks on the basis of wise counsel from guys who mean well and might be inspired or might just have certain experiences and outlooks that shape the words they use. the appeal to authority is not ambiguous and is different from how it is characterized by the smart folks itt

Sold by whom? A lot of the church manuals and seminary teachers might suggest near infallibility. I don't recall the prophet or an apostle ever saying so (funk put forth the closest examples earlier in this thread). Their goal is to urge people to Christ through the restored gospel. So they promote the point of the priesthood and the authority and the process, not the shortcomings. It is an ends based sales job, to be sure, but they never claim infallibility.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Tell that to the grieving parents.

In both cases, priesthood blessings were give. Are you telling me that the priesthood used to bless those babies was less powerful than the priesthood used by the Q15? Where is that doctrine written?

I think we are reaching the point where we are talking past each other. I don’t think I said anything about blessings or the power being different. The doctrine that the prophet has access to revelation that the rest of the church doesn’t is a founding doctrine, or at least I have always been taught such.

[smokymountainrain]

Sold by whom? A lot of the church manuals and seminary teachers might suggest near infallibility. I don't recall the prophet or an apostle ever saying so (funk put forth the closest examples earlier in this thread). Their goal is to urge people to Christ through the restored gospel. So they promote the point of the priesthood and the authority and the process, not the shortcomings. It is an ends based sales job, to be sure, but they never claim infallibility.

smh. nobody is arguing that.

[Donuthole]

smh. nobody is arguing that.

Well, sort of. They are arguing that they can make mistakes, but that they can't make THIS mistake. That is a flawed argument that defies logic. If they can make mistakes, all mistakes are on the table. Therefor, if they can't make THIS mistake, it can only be because they can't make mistakes, period. Which brings infallibility back into the picture.

[creekster]

Was your neighbor’s baby given cancer by a doctor the Q15 assigned them to go to and asked them to sustain as called from God? Again I see a wide gap to cross between your scenarios.

While I agree with JL's take on the broader issue, I agree with you here that this example is not apt. But the question for you is if you concede that the ability ot see and prophesy is not perfect, why do you expect perfection here? Bishop was a guy who appeared to be very faithful. My guess is he was a guy who TRIED to be faithful. plus, he had perfect experience for running a place like the MTC. So, on the face of it, he was an ideal candidate. Your complaint seems to be that the brethren should have KNOWN Bishop would engage in this misconduct and so never have called him. Maybe they couldnt have known. Maybe God couldnt have known (re-opening the question of omniscience raised by Wuap earlier, which has never been settled here or anywhere else). It is hard to say. But given all of the truly horrible things that God watches happen every day and does nothign to prevent, both in and out of his church, this one in and of itself doesnt stand out as something that is inexplicable to me.