Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[Pelado]

Was it oxcoug that used the above quote to argue that Joseph Smith was essentially "taken out" by God because instituting polygamy was bullshit? Maybe it was someone else. In any case, you could have some fun bringing that up in your Gospel Principles class.

That's possible. I first remember hearing that possibility from my mother:

After he shared the passage that he deemed most important, I in-artfully wondered aloud which and how many had been removed because of their potential for leading astray. No names were brought up in class. The only name that I had in my mind came from a conversation I had with my mother a couple of years ago.

We were discussing the Nauvoo period of polygamy and polyandry. My mother posited a potential explanation for all the goings-on there - that Joseph had overstepped his bounds and the Carthage mob were doing the will of the Lord in reigning him in.

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[wuapinmon]

Sorry, but your post didn't exactly seem crafted to elicit a sincere response. It is neither rewarding nor productive to debate you when you are angry.

Mac Williams, nice to meet you.

[Mormon Red Death]

They ask us to sustain them. Sustaining does not mean agreeing with or believing they have supernatural powers.

So a prophet seer and revelators aren't supernatural powers?

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[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Not trying to argue here. I can respect how you feel about this subject. It's not an easy thing to sustain people that you might not think are all there, or are plain wrong on certain issues. Heaven knows I rarely agree with anything my HPGL says or does in his calling, but I sustain him still the same. And, yes, I get why that is hard from many people. Perhaps my part of sustaining is letting said HPGL know that bringing ten BOM on every business trip with the intent to give them all away is not a good approach, or perhaps not following that admonition and silently setting that higher calling aside.

When it comes to the leadership of the Church as a whole, there is a lot that can and should be changed for the better. It's people like you, and I hope me, that help to precipitate that change. In the meantime, I choose to sustain them by supporting them how I can. I think you are too, even if Brother Derosher who hasn't voted for a democrat is his entire life because Ezra Taft Benson once said in a Stake Conference that God is definitely a supply sider.

I got nothing but love for you my bruthah! Ain't agency great?

I appreciate your response, and I ain’t got nottin but love for ya, I’m down for yours.

I guess what seems problematic to me is it seems that some (not you) are staying that it is foolish to believe in supernatural powers, it has even turned to callings (like MTC President) are done out of desperation not inspiration. . Yet I’m using church resources to teach my soon to be 8 year old that he will receive a power that will protect him spiritually and possibly physically if he is living in a way to be able to receive it. That is the same power that allowed Nephi to see all things from the creation until the end.

I also disagree with Lebowski that saying they should have this ability at certain times means they are expected to be perfect. Aren’t we promised that we will receive that which we need in the moment we need it? Is a HPGL saying weird things about doctrine or personal beliefs of the gospel the same as a person placed in a leadership position that at the time of calling had access to every single missionary the church called? I know I’m the stupid one here, I embrace it, but I’m pretty sure that the claim of the 1P and Q12 isn’t “sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t!”

[Jeff Lebowski]

I appreciate your response, and I ain’t got nottin but love for ya, I’m down for yours.

I guess what seems problematic to me is it seems that some (not you) are staying that it is foolish to believe in supernatural powers, it has even turned to callings (like MTC President) are done out of desperation not inspiration.

Once again, the supernatural powers issue has been taken completely out of context. Maybe Cardiac doesn't believe in any supernatural powers. That's fine. If you think that the church leaders should be able to foresee and stop all problems, then you are assigning supernatural powers beyond what is reasonable, historical, scriptural, etc.

I also reject the notion that church leaders NEVER foresee and prevent problems. To make that statement you would have to be able to read their minds and be privy to all of the thoughts, private discussions, etc. You have no clue what things may or may not have been prevented. Does God prevent all problems by alerting church leaders? Of course not. That has never been the case.

I also reject the notion that all callings are made out of desperation.

Yet I’m using church resources to teach my soon to be 8 year old that he will receive a power that will protect him spiritually and possibly physically if he is living in a way to be able to receive it. That is the same power that allowed Nephi to see all things from the creation until the end.

I also disagree with Lebowski that saying they should have this ability at certain times means they are expected to be perfect. Aren’t we promised that we will receive that which we need in the moment we need it? Is a HPGL saying weird things about doctrine or personal beliefs of the gospel the same as a person placed in a leadership position that at the time of calling had access to every single missionary the church called?

Not sure what you are arguing here. They don't need to be perfect, but they need to get enough inspiration to prevent what you think really matters? Apparently the MTC blunder is a deal killer for some of you. But why stop there? Why didn't God stop Hitler? The genocide in Africa? Mountain Meadows? Slavery? Spanish Flu? Bubonic Plague? Trump presidency (rim shot)?

I know I’m the stupid one here, I embrace it, but I’m pretty sure that the claim of the 1P and Q12 isn’t “sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t!”

Of course they don't express it like that. It would be awkward and silly to qualify everything at all times. But that doesn't make it any less true.

"Vegetables are good for you." -- Sometimes they contain e coli.

"Spending time with kids is great." -- Sometimes they are a PITA.

"Exercise makes you healthy." -- Sometimes it injures you.

"Going to college is wise." -- Some dropouts become super wealthy and successful

"Callings are inspired." -- Many (most?) are. Some aren't.

"The Q12 are seers." -- They give use counsel and advice to prepare for future events, but they are not omniscient.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Once again, the supernatural powers issue has been taken completely out of context. Maybe Cardiac doesn't believe in any supernatural powers. That's fine. If you think that the church leaders should be able to foresee and stop all problems, then you are assigning supernatural powers beyond what is reasonable, historical, scriptural, etc.

I also reject the notion that church leaders NEVER foresee and prevent problems. To make that statement you would have to be able to read their minds and be privy to all of the thoughts, private discussions, etc. You have no clue what things may or may not have been prevented. Does God prevent all problems by alerting church leaders? Of course not. That has never been the case.

I also reject the notion that all callings are made out of desperation.




Not sure what you are arguing here. They don't need to be perfect, but they need to get enough inspiration to prevent what you think really matters? Apparently the MTC blunder is a deal killer for some of you. But why stop there? Why didn't God stop Hitler? The genocide in Africa? Mountain Meadows? Slavery? Spanish Flu? Bubonic Plague? Trump presidency (rim shot)?



Of course they don't express it like that. It would be awkward and silly to qualify everything at all times. But that doesn't make it any less true.

"Vegetables are good for you." -- Sometimes they contain e coli.

"Spending time with kids is great." -- Sometimes they are a PITA.

"Exercise makes you healthy." -- Sometimes it injures you.

"Going to college is wise." -- Some dropouts become super wealthy and successful

"Callings are inspired." -- Many (most?) are. Some aren't.

"The Q12 are seers." -- They give use counsel and advice to prepare for future events, but they are not omniscient.

I don’t believe I have once stated that they should be omniscient. I can understand your point, I even agree with some of what you are saying. I see a vast difference between requiring omniscience/preventing Hitler/etc and being able to use this power to not promote a member of the faith that is a predator to a position viewed as powerful and important which will allow that person to act on their predatory traits in a trusted enviornment. That’s fine that you don’t, it just means you keep accusing others of being black and white while making the biggest black and white argument.

I’ll tepeat, I never ask for perfection or omniscience.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don’t believe I have once stated that they should be omniscient. I can understand your point, I even agree with some of what you are saying. I see a vast difference between requiring omniscience/preventing Hitler/etc and being able to use this power to not promote a member of the faith that is a predator to a position viewed as powerful and important which will allow that person to act on their predatory traits in a trusted enviornment. That’s fine that you don’t, it just means you keep accusing others of being black and white while making the biggest black and white argument.

I’ll tepeat, I never ask for perfection or omniscience.

Help me understand your argument. It seems like you are saying they don't need to be perfect, but by golly if they whiffed on this one, they don't have any powers. Is that about right?

I don't think you or I get to choose when God does or doesn't act.

[old_gregg]

Help me understand your argument. It seems like you are saying they don't need to be perfect, but by golly if they whiffed on this one, they don't have any powers. Is that about right?

I don't think you or I get to choose when God does or doesn't act.

if they do not have more revelatory or prophetic power than the average person, what’s the point? again, the discussion of omniscience and fallibility is irrelevant.

[creekster]

if they do not have more revelatory or prophetic power than the average person, what’s the point? again, the discussion of omniscience and fallibility is irrelevant.

Because it it episodic not steady state.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Help me understand your argument. It seems like you are saying they don't need to be perfect, but by golly if they whiffed on this one, they don't have any powers. Is that about right?

I don't think you or I get to choose when God does or doesn't act.

I would like to think God would use his power to limit rapes by leaders of his church amongst those choosing to serve God’s church. I don’t think I get to choose when God acts, I’m not sure where I said that.

I get your argument is vegetables are good for you, except when they have e coli and the Q12 are seers except when they aren’t. I guess my argument is that it is discouraging to head into a weekend where we will hear stories of times when revelation was used as promotions of faith but told we can’t expect it to protect missionaries from being raped by the mission president.

[Moliere]

I don’t believe I have once stated that they should be omniscient. I can understand your point, I even agree with some of what you are saying. I see a vast difference between requiring omniscience/preventing Hitler/etc and being able to use this power to not promote a member of the faith that is a predator to a position viewed as powerful and important which will allow that person to act on their predatory traits in a trusted enviornment. That’s fine that you don’t, it just means you keep accusing others of being black and white while making the biggest black and white argument.

I’ll tepeat, I never ask for perfection or omniscience.

Lebowski straw man is that I think god should prevent all bad things and prophets should be omniscient. He’s missing the nuance in the argument, but I get where you are coming from.

My take on this has been that leaders (GAs) should have had some inkling the guy was a predator, which it seems he had some issues even before his call as MTC president. Heck, even my mission president claimed to know who had and didn’t have the spirit with them. I’ve since realized he was just full of crap when he said that.

The spirit of discernment is turning over in his grave.


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[Sullyute]

I would like to think God would use his power to limit rapes by leaders of his church amongst those choosing to serve God’s church. I don’t think I get to choose when God acts, I’m not sure where I said that.

I get your argument is vegetables are good for you, except when they have e coli and the Q12 are seers except when they aren’t. I guess my argument is that it is discouraging to head into a weekend where we will hear stories of times when revelation was used as promotions of faith but told we can’t expect it to protect missionaries from being raped by the mission president.

Pres kimball died in 1985. Maybe he was removed by God for making such a plunderous pick for a mission president.

[creekster]

I would like to think God would use his power to limit rapes by leaders of his church amongst those choosing to serve God’s church. I don’t think I get to choose when God acts, I’m not sure where I said that.

I get your argument is vegetables are good for you, except when they have e coli and the Q12 are seers except when they aren’t. I guess my argument is that it is discouraging to head into a weekend where we will hear stories of times when revelation was used as promotions of faith but told we can’t expect it to protect missionaries from being raped by the mission president.

I understand how you feel and agree that it is disappointing and can be discouraging. But life is messy and, IMO, it is supposed to be. There are so many horrible things out there. Grinding, soul-crushing poverty. Starvation and violence and death. It is very hard to reconcile some of the things I have come across in my life, including this story, with many of the things the gospel teaches. And yet, I have also had transcendant, but episodic, spiritual experiences. True revelatory moments. Instances that make me pay attention and which make me believe there is a God and that there is more to come. And I know from my own experience that if I want to be happy in my own life I am much better off following the principles of the gospel. So I can only conclude, from inference, that God does offer guidance, but not too much. I conclude that he wants us to struggle, and fight, and overcome the hurdles that life places before us. I conclude that we are here to do our best.

I cannot explain why the world is as messy and sad and disappointing as it often is. All I can do is focus on being a good person and try to make my family, friends, and others around me happy. While doing this I seek moments of inspiration and insight, which sometimes come to me (but more often do not), that help me stick with the plan. Lacking that clear guidance, I must do what I can and what I think best. I get it wrong a lot more often than I get it right. And all those men who lead the church are really not much different than you or me or anyone else. I think they are trying. They tell us what to seek for. They tell us examples of how it can work for people. But, nothing they do can overcome human agency (inclduing their own) and the messiness and disappointment and anger and hurt that such agency inevitably leaves in its wake. So, we persevere.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I would like to think God would use his power to limit rapes by leaders of his church amongst those choosing to serve God’s church. I don’t think I get to choose when God acts, I’m not sure where I said that.

No, that is essentially what you are doing. You are implying that this offense is so egregious, so extraordinary that God **SHOULD** have stopped it.

I get your argument is vegetables are good for you, except when they have e coli and the Q12 are seers except when they aren’t. I guess my argument is that it is discouraging to head into a weekend where we will hear stories of times when revelation was used as promotions of faith but told we can’t expect it to protect missionaries from being raped by the mission president.

My neighbor's baby died of cancer, in spite of lots of fasting and prayer. My nephew drowned when he was two years old. Those were pretty awful too.

[old_gregg]

Because it it episodic not steady state.

so is your revelation.