Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[creekster]

i haven't mentioned this mistake. to be clear, my position is that this so-called mistake is not only not surprising but expected. if i could make that "mistake" or you could make the same "mistake", they could make it. they only difference between a given Q12 and creekster is that they are higher up on the ladder so their decisions do indeed have a great impact. sit them in a room across from a potential MTC president, they aren't any different than you or lebowski. its not a mistake - people can lie or misrepresent who they are and we shouldn't expect dudes to uncover those untruths by some magical power.

Well, Lebowski might swim in those waters, but I don't. ANd in any given instance they might be receiving more inspiration or direction. But only God knows for sure.

[Jeff Lebowski]

can you point to a mistake comparable to this in modern church history?

Sure. There was a GA (Seventy) that was found guilty of molesting a 12-yr-old girl and was excommunicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee

There was also an apostle in 1943 who was exed for adultery.

[old_gregg]

Sure. There was a GA (Seventy) that was found guilty of molesting a 12-yr-old girl and was excommunicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee

There was also an apostle in 1943 who was exed for adultery.

both were summarily exed

[Jeff Lebowski]

both were summarily exed

You don't think Bishop will be exed?

[smokymountainrain]

Well, Lebowski might swim in those waters, but I don't. ANd in any given instance they might be receiving more inspiration or direction. But only God knows for sure.

I'm fairly certain lebowski does indeed swim in those waters, and i have a feeling your humility is representative of who you are as well.

[creekster]

both were summarily exed

WHich has zero bearing on the argument that we were having or the one that you recast.

[old_gregg]

You don't think Bishop will be exed?

i think he will be. but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been 20+ years ago, when by his admission he brought these matters before at least some regional authorities.

[Jeff Lebowski]

i think he will be. but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been 20+ years ago, when by his admission he brought these matters before at least some regional authorities.

Agreed. But that is a different issue.

[Donuthole]

i think he will be. but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been 20+ years ago, when by his admission he brought these matters before at least some regional authorities.

Sorry, self-serving admissions aren't really admissions. We don't know to what extent he copped to anything.

[wuapinmon]

I don't understand why THIS mistake is out of bounds. A woman in our branch told us of her brother who was raped by a scoutmaster on his first summer camp. The brother reported it, the scoutmaster denied it, and the leaders did nothing . . . . . until another boy reported being raped by the same scoutmaster a few years later. Why did those leaders call the scoutmaster? Why didn't God intervene? Are sister missionaries in the MTC somehow more important than boy scouts?

Because this brings into full focus the elephant in the room.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As will I. I love all of you and despite feeling pretty strongly wish I hadn’t gotten into the fray on this one.

No worries, HFN. Love you, man.

[clackamascoug]

Testimony Time.

I know the Spirit is a real thing. The whispering, the notions, and the feeling of peace and comfort in times of need. When a child or adult is confirmed a member of the church in Sacrament I feel the Holy Ghost as if I was sitting in the chair and hands are placed on my head. When I've confirmed the gift of the Holy Ghost on occasion, I feel The Spirit from the tip of my head and exit through my fingers onto the head of the recipient. Once might be a fluke - but I've given more than a one hundred blessings in my life and I've felt the Spirit every single time. You can question a lot of things in this life, and you can question the arbitration of God about small details, but you can't deny your own Spiritual experiences in the light of information about a horn dog president with a penchant for boobs with a name tag. Shit happens - sometimes children die in pools - sometimes they live - and we bury the dead and like pioneer children we walk and walk and walk until we can walk no more.

[smokymountainrain]

As will I. I love all of you and despite feeling pretty strongly wish I hadn’t gotten into the fray on this one.

fair, but i for one, am glad you jumped in.

[Moliere]

That seems like an odd take. All of their deicison tend to be ones that affect a lot of memebrs. So, as a consequence, any mistake they might make will likely afect a lot of mebers and possibly in some bad ways.

Why are you and others willing to allow for a lot of mistakes, but not this one? How can you call this out as being so unique?

FTR, I’m allowing for this mistake as well as many others. I’m just trying to point out that these types of thing are what drives me to discount their counsel from being straight from the mouth of god to that of a wise and sometimes heavenly inspired person.

As a youth I was taught that what the prophet says in Conference is what God would say if he were speaking. I don’t believe that anymore, which has changed the way I view conference and why I feel no guilt sleeping through most of it.

When the prophet says that gay sex is sinful, even within the bonds of marriage, I’m open to the idea that the prophet is wrong and I discount what he’s saying...because he’s not infallible.


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[Northwestcoug]

Really good discussion the last couple of days. I'm probably repeating what has already been said, but:

For my part, the reason why this is hitting a nerve with some and not as much with others is how close home it hits. I said before that when Pinegar was my MTC president, he made reference to a pres who had seen in vision a whole host of demons ready to attack (?) the missionaries in the MTC. The only reason why they were being held back was the stripling warriors were standing in their way. The MTC was such a spiritual place for me that I didn't doubt that story in the least. I held Pinegar on a very high pedestal, as the majority of missionaries did then and most likely do now with the current president. He was a GA, if not in name then certainly in spirit. I would not have doubted in the slightest that he had seen Jesus. If we were filling out a bracket, his ranking would be just a little lower than then prophet and apostles. And so when we hear an MTC president has likely committed sexual assault more than once, it is definitely jarring.

The argument that JL and others are making is valid, up to a point. There was an apostle right after Kimball was ordained to the 12 who was exed for adultery or something like that. Reading Kimball's biography, he as well as everyone in the 12 were shocked. They had no idea. He had performed his apostolic duties for years while having an affair. They weren't omniscient enough to see what was going on underneath their noses. But stepping outside of the emotional state the vast majority of members have of the GAs, it is easy to contemplate why this would happen. If God doesn't intervene to help humanity in so many other needy causes, why would he care about a single person having an affair?

But this is how the majority of members view the church leadership. They have significant scriptural and cultural underpinnings that lead them to believe that the leadership has much more access to inspiration than the rest of the membership. I remember Brent Metcalf making a very emotional point in his Mormon stories interview. He knew a couple of people who were killed by Hoffman. A huge problem for him was that these bombings could have been prevented if the first presidency had access to inspiration. If God had told one of those leaders, 'psst. Hey, these documents are fake', Hoffman's trajectory would have been stopped cold. And even if you believe that leaders don't commune with god directly and just have similar promptings as a simple member, all it would have taken was a simple whispering of the spirit to stop them from buying the fake documents. Had they had access to this or even listened to a prompting, two people would have not been killed.

Metcalf's point really cuts through a lot of what has been discussed here. The Hoffman affair provided a clear example of how inspiration could have averted a terrible outcome for 2 people and their families. God knew the documents are fake, and certainly he knew what transpired next would be tragic. Forget about the headache Hoffman caused for the entire church. This was a point in time where a simple prompting would have avoided catastrophe for two families. If the prophet and apostles can't help prevent something as tragic as innocent people being killed when it is in their power to do so, then it shouldn't be surprising to others when they question just exactly what level of inspiration leaders have access to.

But yeah, a lot of unchecked evil goes on in this world. If god intervenes to prevent 2 people getting killed and not does nothing for others, then that would certainly make him an unjust god. But it is taught that he does favor his people, and he communes with his leaders regularly. This is dissonance that we shouldn't be surprised makes people question the practical value of priesthood authority, and the level of inspiration in the church