Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[jay santos]

I know JL already alluded to it, but it's worth mentioning again: this might be your most Dehlinish take yet.

I was about to say something like that. It's really annoying when Progressives use Fundamentalist arguments against the Church.

[Flystripper]

the only sucky seer discussions I enjoy are ones involving suits.



I would always look to HFN for advice on that topic.

[wuapinmon]

Really? Why? I'd expect a seer to see things that have a direct bearing on the doctrine of the church. I'm surprised you think how the church spends some of its money is included in the "mandatory seer" category; but then again, you are an accountant.

You don't think the Salamander Letter and Anthon Transcript and Joseph Smith III Letter wouldn't have had any direct bearing on the doctrine of the church?

[Jeff Lebowski]

The MTC is a major calling, one that is "inspired" and prayed over by the Brethren, maybe even by the prophet. They are all sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. If the calling is therefore inspired, it is not "our own mistake" to put a predatory leader in charge of the missionary training center. The fault lies with god or his servants who should have seen what was going to happen. Either the calling was inspired or they were not inspired. You can't have it both ways. So, if the fault rests not with god, they are not inspired, and they're just men left to their own devices, except when god decides to inspire them, which is basically never, as creekster admits. God, however, tells us that against none is his wrath kindled (D&C 59:21) except those who confess not his hand in all things, which would have to include, sadly, trying to rape a sister missionary in the basement of His training center in Provo. I'm sure if we torture that scenario enough, we can see how God's hand was there, right? We can see how, somehow, His purposes were fulfilled by Elder Asay not doing something? By Bishop being left in his calling? That scripture is doctrine. It cannot be denied and remain doctrinal. Other things can be, but that verse is there in black and white.

So, either we've got a God who is being far too coy with us, his children.

This response would make sense if I (or anyone) had claimed that everything a leader does is inspired.

And you are torturing that scripture to mean something is does not.

[old_gregg]

Yeah, good old Brigham Young.

i do not think this squares with at least the ethos (and maybe more than that) of the modern church.

[wuapinmon]

This response would make sense if I (or anyone) had claimed that everything a leader does is inspired.

And you are torturing that scripture to mean something is does not.

You know very well that the entire Church thinks that every single calling is inspired, down to hometeaching routes.

First, you are called of God. The Lord knows you. He knows whom He would have serve in every position in His Church. He chose you. He has prepared a way so that He could issue your call. He restored the keys of the priesthood to Joseph Smith. Those keys have been passed down in an unbroken line to President Hinckley. Through those keys, other priesthood servants were given keys to preside in stakes and wards, in districts and branches. It was through those keys that the Lord called you. Those keys confer a right to revelation. And revelation comes in answer to prayer. The person who was inspired to recommend you for this call didn’t do it because they liked you or because they needed someone to do a particular task. They prayed and felt an answer that you were the one to be called.
The person who called you did not issue the call simply because he learned by interviewing you that you were worthy and willing to serve. He prayed to know the Lord’s will for you. It was prayer and revelation to those authorized of the Lord which brought you here. Your call is an example of a source of power unique to the Lord’s Church. Men and women are called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those God has authorized.
You are called to represent the Savior. Your voice to testify becomes the same as His voice, your hands to lift the same as His hands. His work is to bless His Father’s spirit children with the opportunity to choose eternal life. So, your calling is to bless lives. That will be true even in the most ordinary tasks you are assigned and in moments when you might be doing something not apparently connected to your call. Just the way you smile or the way you offer to help someone can build their faith. And should you forget who you are, just the way you speak and the way you behave can destroy faith.
Your call has eternal consequences for others and for you. In the world to come, thousands may call your name blessed, even more than the people you serve here. They will be the ancestors and the descendants of those who chose eternal life because of something you said or did, or even what you were. If someone rejects the Savior’s invitation because you did not do all you could have done, their sorrow will be yours. You see, there are no small callings to represent the Lord. Your call carries grave responsibility. But you need not fear, because with your call come great promises.
One of those promises is the second thing you need to know. It is that the Lord will guide you by revelation just as He called you. You must ask in faith for revelation to know what you are to do. With your call comes the promise that answers will come. But that guidance will come only when the Lord is sure you will obey. To know His will you must be committed to do it. The words “Thy will be done,” written in the heart, are the window to revelation.

Elder Eyring.
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-call?lang=eng

[falafel]

You don't think the Salamander Letter and Anthon Transcript and Joseph Smith III Letter wouldn't have had any direct bearing on the doctrine of the church?

Um, no. What do you think the doctrine of the church is?

[LVAllen]

You know very well that the entire Church thinks that every single calling is inspired, down to hometeaching routes.
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-call?lang=eng

Most nursery leaders know full well their calling came out of desperation, not inspiration.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You know very well that the entire Church thinks that every single calling is inspired, down to hometeaching routes.


Elder Eyring.
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-call?lang=eng

Another black and white argument. They are either all inspired or none are inspired. The system works perfectly, or it never works.

I would expect more nuance from you, my friend. I think you are simply yanking my chain.

[Uncle Ted]

The MTC is a major calling, one that is "inspired" and prayed over by the Brethren, maybe even by the prophet. They are all sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. If the calling is therefore inspired, it is not "our own mistake" to put a predatory leader in charge of the missionary training center. The fault lies with god or his servants who should have seen what was going to happen. Either the calling was inspired or they were not inspired. You can't have it both ways. So, if the fault rests not with god, they are not inspired, and they're just men left to their own devices, except when god decides to inspire them, which is basically never, as creekster admits. God, however, tells us that against none is his wrath kindled (D&C 59:21) except those who confess not his hand in all things, which would have to include, sadly, trying to rape a sister missionary in the basement of His training center in Provo. I'm sure if we torture that scenario enough, we can see how God's hand was there, right? We can see how, somehow, His purposes were fulfilled by Elder Asay not doing something? By Bishop being left in his calling? That scripture is doctrine. It cannot be denied and remain doctrinal. Other things can be, but that verse is there in black and white.

So, either we've got a God who is being far too coy with us, his children.

I always cringe when folks get up on "open mic Sunday" and talk about how they know someone was inspired to be called to some position... Folks like that apparently haven't sat in on too many bishopric meetings, IMHO.

I think the Lord expects the church leadership to get off their lazy asses and conduct a pretty good background check, especially on potential MTC presidents. I think some folks may have overlooked talking to some of the people he worked with while at Weber State. Of course, back in the 80's I don't think too many men would think of talking to the former Dean of Women, however.

[originalsocal]

I don’t know all the cool argument comments like “straw man” “red herring” “virtue signaling” etc. but yours has to be one of them. So we aren’t saying we believe it, but we are supporting them operating to the church we participate in to perform those functions on behalf of the God.

Not trying to argue here. I can respect how you feel about this subject. It's not an easy thing to sustain people that you might not think are all there, or are plain wrong on certain issues. Heaven knows I rarely agree with anything my HPGL says or does in his calling, but I sustain him still the same. And, yes, I get why that is hard from many people. Perhaps my part of sustaining is letting said HPGL know that bringing ten BOM on every business trip with the intent to give them all away is not a good approach, or perhaps not following that admonition and silently setting that higher calling aside.

When it comes to the leadership of the Church as a whole, there is a lot that can and should be changed for the better. It's people like you, and I hope me, that help to precipitate that change. In the meantime, I choose to sustain them by supporting them how I can. I think you are too, even if Brother Derosher who hasn't voted for a democrat is his entire life because Ezra Taft Benson once said in a Stake Conference that God is definitely a supply sider.

I got nothing but love for you my bruthah! Ain't agency great?

[The_Tick]

I was clearly self-deprecating by quoting the uncoolest character in Star Wars, C3PO--and it was "six million" not "six."

You shut your whore mouth.

[The_Tick]

Oh sorry. My bad.

Come on, wuap. Uncoolest character is Jar Jar Binks.

Exactly.

[The_Tick]

You know very well that the entire Church thinks that every single calling is inspired, down to hometeaching routes.


Elder Eyring.
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-call?lang=eng

False. We once reorganized HT routes in a lite version of Fantasy Football. It was fairly successful, but not inspired. When HT is around 25%, you just shoot for the stars.

[Moliere]

I’m trying to figure out the reason for having a prophet, seer and revelator. My best answer is that they testify of Christ. But that’s pretty much it and I’m fine with that. But IMO, outside of testifying of Christ they don’t really prophesy, see, or reveal anything of substance. Again, I’m fine with that since the core of the doctrine is Christ.

I guess this is why I’ve carved out a space for me in an area I call Mormon Deism. God set up the framework through JS and men now run it with God only intervening if necessary, but much less often than we think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk