Breast implants

[jay santos]

I read your list of obvious commandments that people hedge on. I realize you have a strong belief of your position on this and I don't want to offend but you are up in the night on that list. Even a true believer can look at some of those subjects and not agree that they are clear commandments for the general populace of the Church. Are you unable to hear their arguments when presented because of your strong opinions or have you never had someone explain why some of those are clearly not commandments?

I've heard explanations. And I agree with many of them. i.e. Saving Private Ryan as a rated R movie. or a cultural tattoo issue. Things like that. Those are exceptions. What I mean is someone who watches rated R movies weekly (like I do) or gets multiple tats (not my style), and justifies it as "it was just advice, this doesn't apply to me". I think a much more honest way would be to watch the movies and get the tats and say I know my heart isn't one with God just yet and I'm working on it, and I'm glad he's there to cover my sins.

The first I see no different than the Pharisee who says I don't need Christ because I don't sin. The second I see as a true New Testament Christ follower.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've heard explanations. And I agree with many of them. i.e. Saving Private Ryan as a rated R movie. or a cultural tattoo issue. Things like that. Those are exceptions. What I mean is someone who watches rated R movies weekly (like I do) or gets multiple tats (not my style), and justifies it as "it was just advice, this doesn't apply to me". I think a much more honest way would be to watch the movies and get the tats and say I know my heart isn't one with God just yet and I'm working on it, and I'm glad he's there to cover my sins.

The first I see no different than the Pharisee who says I don't need Christ because I don't sin. The second I see as a true New Testament Christ follower.

Commandments have exceptions?

You are all over the map, Jay. You don't think the GA's ever give talks in the spirit of advice or counsel? You see no gradation whatsoever in the counsel that is given?

How about this:

D&C 89:1-2

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days.
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

I realize that this later evolved into commandment status. But the point is, even God distinguishes between counsel and commandment.

[KillerDog]

I've heard explanations. And I agree with many of them. i.e. Saving Private Ryan as a rated R movie. or a cultural tattoo issue. Things like that. Those are exceptions. What I mean is someone who watches rated R movies weekly (like I do) or gets multiple tats (not my style), and justifies it as "it was just advice, this doesn't apply to me". I think a much more honest way would be to watch the movies and get the tats and say I know my heart isn't one with God just yet and I'm working on it, and I'm glad he's there to cover my sins.

The first I see no different than the Pharisee who says I don't need Christ because I don't sin. The second I see as a true New Testament Christ follower.

You've cited the "R rated movies prohibition" as a commandment multiple times. There is no such prohibition or commandment. There are occurrences where the youth of the Church were told not to watch R rated movies. A commandment to a discrete and specifically identified subset does not make a general commandment. I think this is a legitimate argument and it is substantially supported by evidence.

I've not looked into the tatoo and ear ring stuff. What audience was that intended for?

Look at the "attend your meetings" commandment as another thing you identify as a commandment. A commandment that is demonstrably vague cannot be considered a commandment. What meetings? Attend in what way? How often? Considering that this "commandment" is counterbalanced by a commandment to "have fewer meetings" what is our response to these two dueling "commandments" (for the record, I don't believe either is a commandment)?

If "wear your garment day and night" is a commandment, why is it tempered by additional clarifying advice? Can commandments be tempered by clarifying advice? For example, "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is the commandment but is it appropriate to then say "You can bear false witness as long as it is in defense of the Church" or some other such thing? I think this affects whether something is a commandment or not.

Personally, I find the whole body of "commandments" very confusing. In my experience, the belief concerning whether something is a commandment is very subjective and inconsistent.

[mUUser]

Santos, On a certain level -- some of what you say makes sense (if I'm following correctly)

Is this another way of saying it?

We're imperfect. We're imperfect A LOT. If it were possible for us to follow all commandments at all times, God wouldn't have found it necessary to sacrifice His Son in the form of a Savior.

As such, admit we break commandments...A LOT. Resolve to improve, if only by the smallest of the most miniature-sized baby steps, and take advantage of Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Yes?...No?....Maybe?

[pellegrino]

How is this not obvious? Prophetic counsel and commandment varies in every time. Doctrine is unchanging.

Then what about the elephants in the room (polygamy, blacks and the priesthood)? Were they doctrinal or were they prophetic counsel?

[mUUser]

Then what about the elephants in the room (polygamy, blacks and the priesthood)? Were they doctrinal or were they prophetic counsel?

At the time they were doctrinal, but now upon further review, with additional light & knowledge we realize they were, uh, eh,....forget it.

[jay santos]

Commandments have exceptions?

You are all over the map, Jay. You don't think the GA's ever give talks in the spirit of advice or counsel? You see no gradation whatsoever in the counsel that is given?

How about this:

D&C 89:1-2

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days.
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

I realize that this later evolved into commandment status. But the point is, even God distinguishes between counsel and commandment.

I don't think I'm all over the map because this is a theology I've believed in for a number of years, and I believe I'm internally consistent with it. Maybe I'm just not explaining it well.

1. There are exceptions to everything, like I mentioned in the last post. When I speak of ignoring commandments, I'm not talking about these kinds of exceptions. If you believe through personal revelation that you have a situation where an exception to the commandment is important, then you have a higher purpose and certainly following that personal revelation would not be sinful. i.e. the spirit suggested to me there's something important in Schindler's List for me to see. vs I just didn't feel it when the prophet said no rated R movies....or mission be home time is 9:00. This discussion's going longer than expected and I feel like I should not cut it short vs 9:00's too early, I'll just do it the way I want

2. Sec 89 has clear language that it's NOT a commandment (at the time).


I know it sounds self-righteous what I'm saying because y'all are used to viewing the concept of sin or calling other people sinners as extreme judgmental and self-righteous. But what I'm saying is let's NOT attach all that shame and yucky feelings to committing sin. It's what we humans do on a daily basis. We're born to do it. Let's rejoice in the Savior who covers all these sins and seek to become one with him over time.

[jay santos]

Santos, On a certain level -- some of what you say makes sense (if I'm following correctly)

Is this another way of saying it?

We're imperfect. We're imperfect A LOT. If it were possible for us to follow all commandments at all times, God wouldn't have found it necessary to sacrifice His Son in the form of a Savior.

As such, admit we break commandments...A LOT. Resolve to improve, if only by the smallest of the most miniature-sized baby steps, and take advantage of Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Yes?...No?....Maybe?

That's exactly what I"m saying. And further I'm saying that all this jockeying we do to wiggle around what is a commandment and what's not feels A LOT like what Jesus spent all his time preaching against, which was the concept that the Pharisees didn't need a Savior because they didn't feel like they committed sin.

[jay santos]

Then what about the elephants in the room (polygamy, blacks and the priesthood)? Were they doctrinal or were they prophetic counsel?

They would never be prophetic counsel. That's a different category. Prophetic counsel/commandments is what the prophet is telling you to do. Doctrine is truth about God. And I wouldn't know how to answer that question. My answer probably would be that the prophets taught them as doctrine, and that GBH overstated the case on that one.

[LA Ute]

I've often toyed with getting a small red block "U" tattooed on my rear end but my wife objects. She can't articulate why. (I do not need any suggestions from anyone here, either. Thank you.)

[Jeff Lebowski]

I know it sounds self-righteous what I'm saying because y'all are used to viewing the concept of sin or calling other people sinners as extreme judgmental and self-righteous. But what I'm saying is let's NOT attach all that shame and yucky feelings to committing sin. It's what we humans do on a daily basis. We're born to do it. Let's rejoice in the Savior who covers all these sins and seek to become one with him over time.

I understand that message and you have always been an effective and persuasive advocate for that concept. But your earlier posts in the thread implied that there is no difference between counsel and commandment and that all statements are equally binding. I just don't believe that.

[The_Tick]

Jay,

Just to make sure I follow you...

Was Polygamy a Commandment?

Was denying Black the Priesthood a Commandment?

Before I jump into the deep end with you I want to be sure what the rules are...

[jay santos]

I understand that message and you have always been an effective and persuasive advocate for that concept. But your earlier posts in the thread implied that there is no difference between counsel and commandment and that all statements are equally binding. I just don't believe that.

It's kind of bizarre having this discussion because what many of you say sounds legalistic and grace-less to me. And what I say sounds mullahish and legalistic to many of you.

I probably do differ on what is binding. Although I don't like that word at all. It still seems to come from a completely different paradigm than what I'm coming from, so it doesn't fit. Is breaking a counsel a little sin and breaking commandment is a big sin? I don't view things that way. Is breaking counsel not a sin because it's not really God's will? Giving my heart, might, mind, and strength is binding. How could anything over the pulpit NOT be binding? It's ALL binding and we're all screwed because it is binding and we have no hope to obey it all.

We won't resolve this because of the paradigm difference. I'm just popping in to make my case for grace again.

[jay santos]

Jay,

Just to make sure I follow you...

Was Polygamy a Commandment?

Was denying Black the Priesthood a Commandment?

Before I jump into the deep end with you I want to be sure what the rules are...

lol I don't want to jump into the deep end with you on this. I'm making a point about commandments and sin and grace. This is outside the scope.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's kind of bizarre having this discussion because what many of you say sounds legalistic and grace-less to me. And what I say sounds mullahish and legalistic to many of you.

I probably do differ on what is binding. Although I don't like that word at all. It still seems to come from a completely different paradigm than what I'm coming from, so it doesn't fit. Is breaking a counsel a little sin and breaking commandment is a big sin? I don't view things that way. Is breaking counsel not a sin because it's not really God's will? Giving my heart, might, mind, and strength is binding. How could anything over the pulpit NOT be binding? It's ALL binding and we're all screwed because it is binding and we have no hope to obey it all.

We won't resolve this because of the paradigm difference. I'm just popping in to make my case for grace again.

I understand your point. Thanks.