The June 1

[ERCougar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did she not go to the New York Times rather than her initial disciplinary council? If she thought bringing attention to the issue via the media would be a better catalyst for change, then I have to say that was a bad call on her part. I just can't conclude anything else given the little info I have about the situation.

*further, I don't believe the Church is prone to punish people for having personal doctrinal struggles. At all. But you have to admit this was not personal- she picked up the rifle for a cause that she perceived to be greater than herself. If she has become a martyr and if the media has picked up steam, that's her doing. I mean- she started a website, a formal organization, picketed general conference, did interviews, apparently authored or at least commissioned and published a brief/critique of her disciplinary council, etc.

If she is a believer, then yes- it sucks to be her. She's not getting satisfaction on her personal query, and she has to promise to drop the crusade if she wants back in. But she has to also know that crusades have never been the way anything has changed in the Church, and was probably told in no uncertain terms to drop the crusade months ago. This is why the apparent lack of sympathy coming from me if my posts are coming across as harsh, judgmental, or hurtful.

Ok. You're wrong.

It's ok, you're not alone. There are plenty of people who have looked into this well, not at all, and yet are completely willing to make public character assessments. Join the crowd.

I think people forget where she's coming from. Much like BY through HBL were "products of their times", Kelly is a product of hers. She is a human rights attorney. Gender inequity is the 21st century's racism, in the First World. This is not a little cause of hers. It is likely the most important moral issue of our day, in her view. You can disagree with her, but to doubt her sincerity is pretty absurd. Especially without taking the time to listen.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's not OK to make posts that come across as harsh, judgmental, or hurtful? Maybe that's why CJ was banned.

Have you been banned?

I was just making an observation.

[Commando]

Ok. You're wrong.

It's ok, you're not alone. There are plenty of people who have looked into this well, not at all, and yet are completely willing to make public character assessments. Join the crowd.

I think people forget where she's coming from. Much like BY through HBL were "products of their times", Kelly is a product of hers. She is a human rights attorney. Gender inequity is the 21st century's racism, in the First World. This is not a little cause of hers. It is likely the most important moral issue of our day, in her view. You can disagree with her, but to doubt her sincerity is pretty absurd. Especially without taking the time to listen.

That's okay. I don't mind being wrong- especially since it doesn't affect me. I don't think I've even touched this topic outside of the board.

*and it's not her sincerity to her cause I'm doubting.

[Northwestcoug]

I'll say one thing, whether or not you believe higher leadership was involved with her excommunication, it's clear to me that there absolutely needs to be direct involvement. Here you have a single bishopric who decided her agitation was grounds for apostasy. She still believes/believed that her membership was key to exaltation. With her eternal fate in the air, the church trusts 3 lay leaders (plus/minus the stake president weighing in) to thrust her into a path that could very likely lead to her damnation. According to LDS Newsroom, courts of love are local concerns, free of any entangling influence from the general leadership. So I guess it's up to the membership to have faith that if they ever find themselves facing church discipline, the local dentist/plumber/businessman/lawyer will do exactly as Jesus would. And his 2 counselors the same. And that they haven't lost in the ward leadership roulette.

Now multiply this potential scenario by the 25,000+ bishoprics/branch presidencies in the world. And you're claiming, LDS Newsroom, that the lack of general oversight is a good thing??? Wouldn't you want to have that check in place, to make sure families aren't lost by erroneous discipline?

[Goatnapper'96]

I'll say one thing,

Indeed!

[kccougar]

So the Bishop not only offered to reschedule the council but to arrange a video link for her to participate. That's not the story Kelly presented earlier when she was talking about the hardship that prevented her from representing herself.

[Pelado]

That's just it. I don't know who told her what. Clearly Oaks' talk was a direct response to her little movement and I also don't know what other questions she had that were not addressed. I don't know if she wrote any letters or if anyone wrote her any responses, either.

This is from the OW mission statement:

Based on the principle of thoughtful, faith-affirming strategic action, Ordain Women aspires to create a space for Mormon women to articulate issues of gender inequality they may be hesitant to raise alone. As a group we intend to put ourselves in the public eye and call attention to the need for the ordination of Mormon women to the priesthood. We sincerely ask our leaders to take this matter to the Lord in prayer.

http://ordainwomen.org/mission/

This is from Elder Oaks' address:

The First Presidency and the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, who preside over the Church, are empowered to make many decisions affecting Church policies and procedures—matters such as the location of Church buildings and the ages for missionary service. But even though these presiding authorities hold and exercise all of the keys delegated to men in this dispensation, they are not free to alter the divinely decreed pattern that only men will hold offices in the priesthood.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...thood?lang=eng

Ordain Women are not asking the brethren to change the policy in and of themselves. They are asking them to ask the Lord if it can be changed. Elder Oaks did not say anything about having taken it to the Lord, only that they can't change it themselves.

Precedence (by no means exhaustive):

D&C Section headers:

5 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, March 1829, at the request of Martin Harris.

8 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829. In the course of the translation of the Book of Mormon, Oliver, who continued to serve as scribe, writing at the Prophet’s dictation, desired to be endowed with the gift of translation. The Lord responded to his supplication by granting this revelation.

11 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to his brother Hyrum Smith, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, May 1829. This revelation was received through the Urim and Thummim in answer to Joseph’s supplication and inquiry.

12 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Joseph Knight Sr., at Harmony, Pennsylvania, May 1829. Joseph Knight believed the declarations of Joseph Smith concerning his possession of the Book of Mormon plates and the work of translation then in progress and several times had given material assistance to Joseph Smith and his scribe, which enabled them to continue translating. At Joseph Knight’s request, the Prophet inquired of the Lord and received the revelation.

14 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to David Whitmer, at Fayette, New York, June 1829. The Whitmer family had become greatly interested in the translating of the Book of Mormon. The Prophet established his residence at the home of Peter Whitmer Sr., where he dwelt until the work of translation was carried to completion and the copyright on the forthcoming book was secured. Three of the Whitmer sons, each having received a testimony as to the genuineness of the work, became deeply concerned over the matter of their individual duty. This revelation and the two following (sections 15 and 16) were given in answer to an inquiry through the Urim and Thummim. David Whitmer later became one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

17 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, at Fayette, New York, June 1829, prior to their viewing the engraved plates that contained the Book of Mormon record. Joseph and his scribe, Oliver Cowdery, had learned from the translation of the Book of Mormon plates that three special witnesses would be designated (see Ether 5:2–4; 2 Nephi 11:3; 27:12). Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were moved upon by an inspired desire to be the three special witnesses. The Prophet inquired of the Lord, and this revelation was given in answer through the Urim and Thummim.

23 -

A series of five revelations given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Manchester, New York, April 1830, to Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Smith, Samuel H. Smith, Joseph Smith Sr., and Joseph Knight Sr. As the result of earnest desire on the part of the five persons named to know of their respective duties, the Prophet inquired of the Lord and received a revelation for each person.

32 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Parley P. Pratt and Ziba Peterson, in Manchester, New York, early October 1830. Great interest and desires were felt by the elders respecting the Lamanites, of whose predicted blessings the Church had learned from the Book of Mormon. In consequence, supplication was made that the Lord would indicate His will as to whether elders should be sent at that time to the Indian tribes in the West. The revelation followed.

33 -

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Ezra Thayre and Northrop Sweet, at Fayette, New York, October 1830. In introducing this revelation, Joseph Smith’s history affirms that “the Lord … is ever ready to instruct such as diligently seek in faith.”

“The Lord … is ever ready to instruct such as diligently seek in faith” unless they happen to be women with "great interest and desires" "to be endowed with the gift of" the priesthood.

[Commando]

I get it- they wanted the leaders to pray about it and they said no dice. Hey- if they give the women the priesthood that would be awesome-- I wouldn't even have to show up on Sunday-- the ladies got this covered!!

[Donuthole]

I get it- they wanted the leaders to pray about it and they said no dice.

I think they said "We'll pray about whether we should pray about it." And then they said "no dice."

[Uncle Ted]

So the Bishop not only offered to reschedule the council but to arrange a video link for her to participate. That's not the story Kelly presented earlier when she was talking about the hardship that prevented her from representing herself.

I thought that was interesting as well but apparently they told her that no one else could attend...

She chose not to attend the hearing or to participate by Skype from church headquarters in Salt Lake City because, she said, she was told she must be alone in the room. She sent a letter to the disciplinary council with pictures from childhood to marriage testifying to her love for her faith, and begging the judges to “allow me to continue to worship in peace.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us...n-Founder.html

I thought it was possible to have witnesses present their testimonies in these sort of things but apparently that wasn't an option for her?

[Commando]

I think they said "We'll pray about whether we should pray about it." And then they said "no dice."

Somebody should have thought to ask Joseph Smith. He would have done it for sure. Not saying the Lord is going to give the thumbs up just because you ask, but Joseph would have thrown one up just to ask.

[Blueintheface]

I thought that was interesting as well but apparently they told her that no one else could attend...


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/us...n-Founder.html

I thought it was possible to have witnesses present their testimonies in these sort of things but apparently that wasn't an option for her?

[Pelado]

Somebody should have thought to ask Joseph Smith. He would have done it for sure. Not saying the Lord is going to give the thumbs up just because you ask, but Joseph would have thrown one up just to ask.

Maybe someone did and he gave the same response OW got.

[Uncle Ted]

I think they said "We'll pray about whether we should pray about it." And then they said "no dice."

Clearly the OW group should have been content with this answer and with their status as secondary members.

[Commando]

Maybe someone did and he gave the same response OW got.

Probably. But all this trouble might have been saved it he had slipped it into D&C.