The June 1

[Topper]

In my admittedly limited experience this is the case. Most excommunications are deep dark secrets known to very few.

Unless a counselor tells his wife, and then it is broadcast for all to know.

[Pheidippides]

One of the early NYTimes articles about the Kelly Affair stated that the LDS church ex-communicates "approximately" 2,000 people annually. It's hard to gauge how they came up with that number, but if it's in the ball park then there are certainly a lot of inactive ex-communications happening. Unless there are a lot of under the radar ex-ings of active mormons going on.

The guys at cumorah.com (org?) said that it's 10 to 20k per year. They are pro LDS and more importantly, have the best statistics on the church outside of the church itself.

[Tex]

It is due to the fact that these people appear to outsiders to be excommunicated for expressing democratic ideals within a theocracy. You know they are pointing to the symbolic meaning of excommunicating peaceful leaders of "movements" within the LDS community. Given how few defined segments in Mormonism of which the outside world becomes aware the excommunication of two leaders appears to be significant.

I was simply questioning the word "wave." I don't consider 2 people a wave. If the Church is excommunicating an average of 8 so-called leaders over 20 years, I'd say that's the best evidence yet of how tolerant it is.

Hopefully that is true. I have a friend who was completely inactive and was exed for living with his girlfriend. This was 10+ years ago in Sandy.

This is really interesting. Any more stories of friends/relatives who are bishops and the direction they were given re: church courts?

Obviously every case is different with 20k+ congregations, but bishoprics generally do not have the time to seek out inactive people for discipline. They're far too busy trying to keep Primary staffed.

[FMCoug]

The guys at cumorah.com (org?) said that it's 10 to 20k per year. They are pro LDS and more importantly, have the best statistics on the church outside of the church itself.

2-5 per stake per year? Totally believable. Maybe even seems low.

[smokymountainrain]

They're far too busy trying to keep Primary staffed.

Goes to show just how effed up most mormons are.

[Pheidippides]

Also, there's a documented list of at least 15 people since the beginning of the year who have been called in for councils or told to resign. This is not about 2 people. My personal view is that HQ is not telling leaders exactly what result to reach but are giving training in certain stakes to tell SPs to crack down on apostasy and then naming names from the Strengthening the Members Committee.

[SeattleUte]

Also, there's a documented list of at least 15 people since the beginning of the year who have been called in for councils or told to resign. This is not about 2 people. My personal view is that HQ is not telling leaders exactly what result to reach but are giving training in certain stakes to tell SPs to crack down on apostasy and then naming names from the Strengthening the Members Committee.

It will be interesting to see the reaction in the coming months and years. Will apostasy and agitation for reform increase as it did throughout the Soviet Union after the crackdown in Hungary, or will this crackdown crush the uprising like happened after the Tiananmen Square protests?

Next conference will be interesting to watch in this respect (in contrast to the talks themselves). I think it's important that increasing numbers of sisters show up at Temple Square to politely request admission to the Priesthood Session. Sisters, don't let Sister Kelly's spiritual martyrdom have occurred in vain!

[imanihonjin]

It will be interesting to see the reaction in the coming months and years. Will apostasy and agitation for reform increase as it did throughout the Soviet Union after the crackdown in Hungary, or will this crackdown crush the uprising like happened after the Tiananmen Square protests?

Next conference will be interesting to watch in this respect (in contrast to the talks themselves). I think it's important that increasing numbers of sisters show up at Temple Square to politely request admission to the Priesthood Session. Sisters, don't let Sister Kelly's spiritual martyrdom have occurred in vain!

I am sure as a former sister in Zion you will be there to support your fellow sisters, right?

[SeattleUte]

I am sure as a former sister in Zion you will be there to support your fellow sisters, right?

I'm an admitted apostate. So on that basis alone I am not like Sister Kelly and her followers and I have no standing to do any such thing. I'm just trying to help everyone generally including the misguided LDS leaders who have martyred Sister Kelly.

[ERCougar]

I was simply questioning the word "wave." I don't consider 2 people a wave. If the Church is excommunicating an average of 8 so-called leaders over 20 years, I'd say that's the best evidence yet of how tolerant it is.





Obviously every case is different with 20k+ congregations, but bishoprics generally do not have the time to seek out inactive people for discipline. They're far too busy trying to keep Primary staffed.

Right. Nothing to see here, news outlets. Except for how remarkably tolerant we are, maybe!

(psst...it's more than two...)

[Northwestcoug]

Yeah, with the articles and essays like this I have seen in the past two weeks, it is a wonder we don't all rush out and demand our own court of love.

In the past few years in my personal experience, I know of 4 people who were exed. Two of them are back in the church and in full fellowship. I think if you asked them, they would say they are grateful for what they would call necessary repentance. Another did everything he was supposed to get back into full fellowship. He was rebaptized but became quickly disillusioned. He described a huge discrepancy of how happy leaders told he was going to be back in the church, and what he felt like. It was a big disappointment for him, and he just stopped attending. Another didn't even try to get back into fellowship. He felt the conditions of repentance were demeaning and ridiculous.

So I can certainly see that for a lot of people the court of love is the exit sign out of the church. For those who go through with discipline and work hard to get back into church, I believe they give too much importance/power to the church courts. They feel guilty, and they buy into what the church says they have to do be forgiven.

[imanihonjin]

I'm an admitted apostate. So on that basis alone I am not like Sister Kelly and her followers and I have no standing to do any such thing. I'm just trying to help everyone generally including the misguided LDS leaders who have martyred Sister Kelly.

LDS leaders killed Kate Kelly!?!

[MartyFunkhouser]

Also, there's a documented list of at least 15 people since the beginning of the year who have been called in for councils or told to resign. This is not about 2 people. My personal view is that HQ is not telling leaders exactly what result to reach but are giving training in certain stakes to tell SPs to crack down on apostasy and then naming names from the Strengthening the Members Committee.

This is very disappointing, but sadly I think that you are right.

[FMCoug]

LDS leaders killed Kate Kelly!?!

Given what you clearly believe about "physical death" and "spiritual death" then in a sense very much so.

[TripletDaddy]

It will be interesting to see the reaction in the coming months and years. Will apostasy and agitation for reform increase as it did throughout the Soviet Union after the crackdown in Hungary, or will this crackdown crush the uprising like happened after the Tiananmen Square protests?

Next conference will be interesting to watch in this respect (in contrast to the talks themselves). I think it's important that increasing numbers of sisters show up at Temple Square to politely request admission to the Priesthood Session. Sisters, don't let Sister Kelly's spiritual martyrdom have occurred in vain!

I assume you want all the women to have fake breasts?