The June 1

[YOhio]

If we've learned anything in this whole mess it's that it's nice to see Jeff Lebowski and creekster getting along again.

[creekster]

Yes, your characterization of the article is better than mine. Thanks.

As to the second point, I agree but I have seen quite a few accounts in recent days of people losing their temple recommends (and in some cases being put on probation) for simply expressing disagreement with the church on some issue in a semi-public way. Hopefully, that is rare. Also (using your example), is there really that big of a difference posting a profile on OW vs making a similar statement on FB? Seems like a rather meaningless distinction to me.

If expressing simple disagreement results in a pulled recommend or otherwise, then I agree with you that it will be a big problem. My guess (and it is only a guess, I am in no position to know either way) is that what we are seeing is an effort by the church to chill the free expression of contrary ideas and to put everyone on notice that they MIGHT be at risk of such actions so as to slow down the willingness of some to post such thou8ghts. In fact, however, I do not think they will pursue most or even many of those making such posts, but if they choose to do so, the support for that pursuit will already be out there. I am not sure this is a good idea either, but I think it is marginally better than actually trying to stop all such posts.

[Blueintheface]

If we've learned anything in this whole mess it's that it's nice to see Jeff Lebowski and creekster getting along again.

I'll take credit for that, tyvm.

[SeattleUte]

This is an interesting post. I gather you found yourself feeling just like you imagined Hume or Paine or Franklin or Espinoza felt? There you go.

Correct.

EDIT: Correct, "a bit".

[PaloAltoCougar]

Excellent post, JL, and I enjoyed that article. Clayton is a good guy I've known since our freshman year, but I've only spoken with him infrequently since college days. We have mutual close friends, though, so I may get some back story on the article. Clayton was the subject of the concluding remarks related by President Monson in the October 2010 conference (Clayton declined to play on Sunday in the UK's equivalent of an NCAA championship basketball game--as the starting center, he had led Oxford to an undefeated season). It's safe to say he's untouchable on this.

[Blueintheface]

I think these recent events are more significant that we might realize.

I'll be honest, I think that may be the first time that I can remember where you actually felt recent events might have significant longterm effects on the church (I could be way off here I realize).

I say that without commentary, as it's meant only as an aside and not a pat-on-the-back from an ex-mo.

[DrumNFeather]

Yes, your characterization of the article is better than mine. Thanks.

As to the second point, I agree but I have seen quite a few accounts in recent days of people losing their temple recommends (and in some cases being put on probation) for simply expressing disagreement with the church on some issue in a semi-public way. Hopefully, that is rare. Also (using your example), is there really that big of a difference posting a profile on OW vs making a similar statement on FB? Seems like a rather meaningless distinction to me.

As I've seen elsewhere, the problem is leadership roullette. This really all depends on who you've got sitting behind the desk in the bishop's office or the SP's office. And now that the ball is rolling, you may see some compelled to find out if this is going on in their ward or stake (though I hope not - they've got better things to do with their time).

I do wonder though if this will result in a shift in the training that the local leaders receive with regard to the internet activities of their flock as it were...and hopefully in the direction of "unless it's extreme, just let it go."

[I.J. Reilly]

Excellent post, JL, and I enjoyed that article. Clayton is a good guy I've known since our freshman year, but I've only spoken with him infrequently since college days. We have mutual close friends, though, so I may get some back story on the article. Clayton was the subject of the concluding remarks related by President Monson in the October 2010 conference (Clayton declined to play on Sunday in the UK's equivalent of an NCAA championship basketball game--as the starting center, he had led Oxford to an undefeated season). It's safe to say he's untouchable on this.

Have you read the recent New Yorker article on Christensen's theory? He's not untouchable; Jill Lepore is going for the throat!

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'll be honest, I think that may be the first time that I can remember where you actually felt recent events might have significant longterm effects on the church (I could be way off here I realize).

I say that without commentary, as it's meant only as an aside and not a pat-on-the-back from an ex-mo.

Yeah, that is way off.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As I've seen elsewhere, the problem is leadership roullette. This really all depends on who you've got sitting behind the desk in the bishop's office or the SP's office. And now that the ball is rolling, you may see some compelled to find out if this is going on in their ward or stake (though I hope not - they've got better things to do with their time).

I do wonder though if this will result in a shift in the training that the local leaders receive with regard to the internet activities of their flock as it were...and hopefully in the direction of "unless it's extreme, just let it go."

Completely agree. I think the majority of leaders would let this stuff go. But the discipline system is in the hands of local leaders and with the natural variation you have in leadership these things are inevitable.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Have you read the recent New Yorker article on Christensen's theory? He's not untouchable; Jill Lepore is going for the throat!

That was interesting and provocative. But Jill is a woman so Clayton can pay it no mind.

[SeattleUte]

Excellent post, JL, and I enjoyed that article. Clayton is a good guy I've known since our freshman year, but I've only spoken with him infrequently since college days. We have mutual close friends, though, so I may get some back story on the article. Clayton was the subject of the concluding remarks related by President Monson in the October 2010 conference (Clayton declined to play on Sunday in the UK's equivalent of an NCAA championship basketball game--as the starting center, he had led Oxford to an undefeated season). It's safe to say he's untouchable on this.

How come none of these LDS celebrities ever become members of the 15 or even GAs?

[YOhio]

That was interesting and provocative. But Jill is a woman so Clayton can pay it no mind.

Totally agree. She comes across as a real nag.

[DrumNFeather]

Completely agree. I think the majority of leaders would let this stuff go. But the discipline system is in the hands of local leaders and with the natural variation you have in leadership these things are inevitable.

Yep. Even the reported incident in Kate Kelly's stake. Most of the people in the room probably were like "ah, interesting," and moved on, but it only takes one person thinking that they need to take action in order to set the avalanche in motion. Like that de-motivational poster I have says (paraphrasing): "You never know the impact of a few harmless flakes."

[PaloAltoCougar]

How come none of these LDS celebrities ever become members of the 15 or even GAs?

Can't explain all of them, but Clayton has had some very serious health issues. And as for me, I've provided advance notice I would not accept a calling to the Twelve, if proffered.