The June 1

[Jeff Lebowski]

You can always tell when SU starts getting his Friday night buzz on. He is a mean drunk!

[YOhio]

It's simple. SU opposes trendy environmentalism because it's treated as a quasi-religion in Seattle. Where it gets weird is when he appeals to majority thought to prove a point.

[Commando]

Carry on with your women and the priesthood and your excommunications and whatnot.

That's straight out of the George Wallace twitter playbook! Well done, sir!

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

It's simple. SU opposes trendy environmentalism because it's treated as a quasi-religion in Seattle. Where it gets weird is when he appeals to majority thought to prove a point.

Despite what MG might say they actually have religion, even 3 hours weekly of Mormonism, in Seattle.

[Pelado]

Do you want a 2014 answer? Or an 1880 answer?

From Quinn:

Nevertheless, Church authorities in the nineteenth century could not simply portray plural marriage as superfluous, in view of the difficulties its practice was causing for individuals and for the Church itself. Therefore, the same Church authorities quoted above also stated that practicing plural marriage was necessary for exaltation: Orson Pratt in 1852 (JD*1:54), Brigham Young in 1866 (JD 11:268-69), 1870 (JosephF. Smith, Diary, 12 Feb. 1870), and 1873 (JD 16: 166, and Woodruff, Diary,*31 Aug. 1873), and George Q. Cannon in 1883 (JD 24: 146). I have not included here any statements where the speaker may have been referring to sealing for time and eternity generally, rather than to plural marriage in particular. The ambiguity of the question is perhaps best indicated by*Brigham Young's sermon on 19 August 1866 in which he began by saying that if monogamist Mormons were "polygamists at least in your faith" they would be exalted, but concluded by saying, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God are those who enter into polygamy." JD 11:*268-69.*

[SeattleUte]

It's simple. SU opposes trendy environmentalism because it's treated as a quasi-religion in Seattle. Where it gets weird is when he appeals to majority thought to prove a point.

It's not a quasi-religion.

[Bruiserstone]

Do you want a 2014 answer? Or an 1880 answer?

Well since the church still practices polygamy per temple sealing, I think I know the answer. A dude's wife dies he is on to the next starting the celestial harem. A gal's husband dies and she gets remarried, sorry baby it is only to death do you part. She is locked in with her harem of sister wives to husband # uno.

[SoonerCoug]

From Reddit today:

"I attended sacrament meeting in Kate Kelly's old Vienna ward in VA this morning. I am not from her ward but was traveling in the area and decided to attend out of curiosity. Here are some notes and thoughts from the meeting:
All songs were about charity and faith. Talk #1 Charity Talk#2 How to deal with a doubts (don't use logic but trust feelings and rely on those who have had faith in past. #3 (Stake President) Bishop Harrison is going through a tough time right now. Such a strong character and an example to us all. Suffering persecution for standing up for what is right. Close to God and cares deeply for members in the ward. This event has been a trial for him in which he has passed."

[Shaka]

From Reddit today:

"I attended sacrament meeting in Kate Kelly's old Vienna ward in VA this morning. I am not from her ward but was traveling in the area and decided to attend out of curiosity. Here are some notes and thoughts from the meeting:
All songs were about charity and faith. Talk #1 Charity Talk#2 How to deal with a doubts (don't use logic but trust feelings and rely on those who have had faith in past. #3 (Stake President) Bishop Harrison is going through a tough time right now. Such a strong character and an example to us all. Suffering persecution for standing up for what is right. Close to God and cares deeply for members in the ward. This event has been a trial for him in which he has passed."

I have an uncle in that ward. I'll get his take next time I see him.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

From Reddit today:

"I attended sacrament meeting in Kate Kelly's old Vienna ward in VA this morning. I am not from her ward but was traveling in the area and decided to attend out of curiosity. Here are some notes and thoughts from the meeting:
All songs were about charity and faith. Talk #1 Charity Talk#2 How to deal with a doubts (don't use logic but trust feelings and rely on those who have had faith in past. #3 (Stake President) Bishop Harrison is going through a tough time right now. Such a strong character and an example to us all. Suffering persecution for standing up for what is right. Close to God and cares deeply for members in the ward. This event has been a trial for him in which he has passed."

The biggest question is what Reddit sub forum this was posted in.

[Uncle Ted]

From Reddit today:

"I attended sacrament meeting in Kate Kelly's old Vienna ward in VA this morning. I am not from her ward but was traveling in the area and decided to attend out of curiosity. Here are some notes and thoughts from the meeting:
All songs were about charity and faith. Talk #1 Charity Talk#2 How to deal with a doubts (don't use logic but trust feelings and rely on those who have had faith in past. #3 (Stake President) Bishop Harrison is going through a tough time right now. Such a strong character and an example to us all. Suffering persecution for standing up for what is right. Close to God and cares deeply for members in the ward. This event has been a trial for him in which he has passed."

I still don't understand why this bishop felt it was his obligation to request for a hold on Kate Kelly's records when he could have easily just sent them on to her new ward and bishop. I guess for some reason he felt like he had to be the one to "jump on the grenade".

It does not seems right that if one is excommunicated by one bishop that the next bishop has to agree to that excommunication. It seems the next bishop should have to review that facts surrounding the excommunication and decide if the excommunication ruling was valid and make his own ruling. After all the excommunication ruling was done at a local level of a different local area and not at a higher level.

This reminds me of a story that friend told me once about a woman that confessed that she had an abortion. Her bishop at the time excommunicated her. Later she moved to a different ward. Her new bishop had met with her to discuss her excommunication and found that she had the abortion as the result of being coming pregnant when she was raped. The new bishop immediately called SLC and got the excommunication reversed. The former bishop either knew that the pregnancy was the result of a rape or didn't care enough to ask. My friend was on the HC of the stake the new bishop served in.

[Solon]

So, I've been ruminating on this for awhile. Still not ready to say I have conclusions, but here are my current thoughts.

1. The claim that priesthood has always been reserved for men is valid, but it only tells part of the story. Historically, in many cultures, priesthood holders were the same sex/gender as the deity. This was the case in ancient Greece & Rome, but not so in ancient Egypt. It's hard to tell about ancient Israel, since there has been so much scrubbing of the religious record, but I am fairly confident that Asherah's cult in ancient Palestine was administered by priestesses. We have hints of as much (e.g. 2 Kings 23.7) as well as comparanda from Ancient Near East myth.

This suggests that there is a tough LDS theological hurdle to clear before ordaining women to administer rituals for a male deity such as the Mormon God-Father & God-Jesus. This also suggests that there are theological openings for priestess-hood to administer rituals for a female deity such as God-Mother. It seems like blessing women could neatly fit into that category, as well as the LDS temple liturgy for women. I wonder if JS intended to make women Priestesses after the Order of Eve or something.

2. I spent over an hour looking through Ordain Women materials and have yet to find what, exactly, that organization teaches that could be considered heretical or apostate. In fact, it teaches very little. The site's materials are really just compilations of facts (some more accurate than others) and excerpts from talks, interviews, etc. In the letter that informed Kelly of her excommunication, it seemed that she was being kicked out for proselyting views that undermine the faith of LDS (and not necessarily for demonstrating in downtown SLC). I found very little in the OW materials that would be considered new or original. Rather, it was a compilation of LDS materials & sources intended to highlight the perceived inadequacies of women's role in the church as currently constituted. While the 6 discussions are clearly an allusion to missionary-work materials, they possessed no invitations or commitments for the participants to undertake. Rather, they are resources for those who want to learn more.

Based on this, I don't see much of a structural difference between OW and, say the BoM Heartlanders who are vigorously trying to convince people of their pet-theory of Book of Mormon locations. Indeed, there might be ammunition to claim that Heartlanders contradict earlier prophetic teachings about the location of BoM sites. But nobody is calling the Heartlanders apostates because they are commenting on the theoretical, rather than the actual. OW raises many valid points about women's roles in the church, but their conclusion that ordaining women to the male-priesthood is the solution is a logical leap (a logical leap that was incorporated by Joseph Smith in making priesthood interchangeable with administration).

3. The thoughts about heresy vs. apostasy definitions are really just riffing off of Sterling McMurrin.

4. My values as a human & my values as a Mormon are becoming less reconcilable.

[Uncle Ted]

2. I spent over an hour looking through Ordain Women materials and have yet to find what, exactly, that organization teaches that could be considered heretical or apostate.

Doesn't the OW website make the claim that the Earth orbits the Sun?

Galileo_before_the_Holy_Office.jpg

[Applejack]

The decision in Dehlin's case is postponed: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58...ormon.html.csp

I noticed that he agreed not to talk to the media about his case.

[Uncle Ted]

Jon Huntsman Jr's daughter, Abby Huntsman, gives her opinion on MSNBC...

http://www.msnbc.com/the-cycle/watch...h-290985539952

My message for the mormon church is the same as it is for the republican party. If you're unwilling to address or even listen to the views of your own members, if you're unwilling to be more inclusive you will eventually be left behind.