Latest Stats and Facts on Punography

[SeattleUte]

For a philosophical take on why porn is debasing and evil, I suggest Jean Baudrillard's Seduction.

You mean this book? LOL. Yes, it should be a required supplement to the Gospel Doctrine Manual. I'm sure it would be a big hit with the 12.

http://www.amazon.com/Seduction-Cult.../dp/0312052944

No one has said pornography is a-okay and not in some sense debasing.

[wuapinmon]

You mean this book? LOL. Yes, it should be a required supplement to the Gospel Doctrine Manual. I'm sure it would be a big hit with the 12.

http://www.amazon.com/Seduction-Cult.../dp/0312052944

No one has said pornography is a-okay and not in some sense debasing.

That's the book; it's fabulous, but not for the sensitive-Mormon set. I got pilloried awhile back for a long rant I wrote about pornography. Let's just say that I am not a fan, and I hate it.

I found my dad's porn stash when I was 13 (1987), and porn had a hold on me for the next 15 years. I joined the Church in 1991 and no one ever asked me about pornography when I was baptized. I was finally able to overcome the addiction only by opening up to my wife about the struggle (she had no idea). Now, I can say that it's not something I worry about, but I cringe whenever I hear people making light of the danger of porn. Certainly not everyone would be addicted to it, but in my case, I have an addictive personality, and anything that I like, I like too much (e.g. Call of Duty on the Wii, food, CUF). It's astounding how good my recall of all those images is. I can't remember what clothes my wife wore today, but I can remember almost every pose or film I ever saw. That sucks, and there's no way for the mind to flush out all the filth I put in.

[UtahDan]

That's the book; it's fabulous, but not for the sensitive-Mormon set. I got pilloried awhile back for a long rant I wrote about pornography. Let's just say that I am not a fan, and I hate it.

I found my dad's porn stash when I was 13 (1987), and porn had a hold on me for the next 15 years. I joined the Church in 1991 and no one ever asked me about pornography when I was baptized. I was finally able to overcome the addiction only by opening up to my wife about the struggle (she had no idea). Now, I can say that it's not something I worry about, but I cringe whenever I hear people making light of the danger of porn. Certainly not everyone would be addicted to it, but in my case, I have an addictive personality, and anything that I like, I like too much (e.g. Call of Duty on the Wii, food, CUF). It's astounding how good my recall of all those images is. I can't remember what clothes my wife wore today, but I can remember almost every pose or film I ever saw. That sucks, and there's no way for the mind to flush out all the filth I put in.

I think you and LA (sorry LA) are breaking your spears on a stawman a bit in this thread. No one is suggesting porn is a good thing. In fact, I think we all acknowledge it is bad. The question is whether what some view as an over the top approach to it is actually harmful in encouraging and helping people to deal with their porn proclivities. Particularly vis a vis how women and wives are encouraged to view it and react to men who reveal they have been looking at it. I keep reading and hearing about sisters who divorce their husbands over this. Is that the appropriate reaction? Should we be teaching, or at least implying,that it is the equivalent of actual marital infidelity? That is the question being asked. Clearly porn is a bad thing, most of all for those who make the films.

[DrumNFeather]

I think you and LA (sorry LA) are breaking your spears on a stawman a bit in this thread. No one is suggesting porn is a good thing. In fact, I think we all acknowledge it is bad. The question is whether what some view as an over the top approach to it is actually harmful in encouraging and helping people to deal with their porn proclivities. Particularly vis a vis how women and wives are encouraged to view it and react to men who reveal they have been looking at it. I keep reading and hearing about sisters who divorce their husbands over this. Is that the appropriate reaction? Should we be teaching, or at least implying,that it is the equivalent of actual marital infidelity? That is the question being asked. Clearly porn is a bad thing, most of all for those who make the films.

I remeber one 5th Sunday lesson in one of my student wards or singles wards where the bishop specifically said that the porn problem in the ward was not limited to the men and that there were several people in the ward both male and female that struggled with it...which is just kind of interesting.

Has anyone else heard this?

[LA Ute]

I think you and LA (sorry LA) are breaking your spears on a stawman a bit in this thread. No one is suggesting porn is a good thing. In fact, I think we all acknowledge it is bad. The question is whether what some view as an over the top approach to it is actually harmful in encouraging and helping people to deal with their porn proclivities. Particularly vis a vis how women and wives are encouraged to view it and react to men who reveal they have been looking at it. I keep reading and hearing about sisters who divorce their husbands over this. Is that the appropriate reaction? Should we be teaching, or at least implying,that it is the equivalent of actual marital infidelity? That is the question being asked. Clearly porn is a bad thing, most of all for those who make the films.

I think porn is a much bigger problem than over-the-top reactions to it are. That seems to me an odd thing to worry about. Just my opinion.

In this fairly definitive talk on the spiritual aspects of the subject, Pres. Hinckley does not teach that viewing porn is the equivalent of adultery. That is what seems like a straw man to me. Who is saying that, other than people in anecdotal accounts? Is that being taught by GAs somewhere? (Serious question, I don't know.)

BTW, re the story in Pres. Hinckley's talk, I am on the wife's side. Her response does not seem over the top to me at all.

[wuapinmon]

I think you and LA (sorry LA) are breaking your spears on a stawman a bit in this thread. No one is suggesting porn is a good thing. In fact, I think we all acknowledge it is bad. The question is whether what some view as an over the top approach to it is actually harmful in encouraging and helping people to deal with their porn proclivities. Particularly vis a vis how women and wives are encouraged to view it and react to men who reveal they have been looking at it. I keep reading and hearing about sisters who divorce their husbands over this. Is that the appropriate reaction? Should we be teaching, or at least implying,that it is the equivalent of actual marital infidelity? That is the question being asked. Clearly porn is a bad thing, most of all for those who make the films.

I'm not attacking a strawman, and I know that some people have defended porn in other threads. I was merely stating my own reaction to porn, absent the ranting vitriol that I had used in the past. I think the fear-mongering about porn are wrong and wrong-headed. It is not adultery. I think the production thereof is far more grievous than its consumption. However, I think an intellectual approach to why you shouldn't view porn, coupled with inspired words like Pres. Hinckley's cited talk are the correct way to approach the problem.

For a pop-culture take on why porn in bad, check out Neutral Milk Hotel's Song Against Sex:

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Nice imagery with "breaking my spear."

[UtahDan]

I think porn is a much bigger problem than over-the-top reactions to it are. That seems to me an odd thing to worry about. Just my opinion.

I'm not worried about it. We're just talking here.

Inthis fairly definitive talk on the spiritual aspects of the subject, Pres. Hinckley does not teach that viewing porn is the equivalent of adultery. That is what seems like a straw man to me. Who is saying that, other than people in anecdotal accounts? Is that being taught by GAs somewhere? (Serious question, I don't know.)

Perhaps I am overstating it by saying it is the equivalent of adultery, but I wonder why women are feeling justified in seeking a divorce over this. Maybe those are exceptional cases where there are already problems in the marriage. President Hinckley's talk is one I have read before and I really like the over all tone and presentation. "Brethren we can do better."

What I think of when I read the story of that woman is how bad their marriage must have been in general for this to be the thing that she could not forgive as he lay dying. A man who had been good, attentive and caring during his life would have been instantly forgiven. Perhaps the point is that porn was the cause of all of their marital woes but my guess is that it was a single symptom of a larger problem and that it is easier for her to blame porn than to face the larger issues, some of which likely involved her. Still, it was obviously a factor. I may be completely wrong. I just feel like hearing stories about women leaving their husbands and wives refusing to give forgiveness on a man's death bed are not helpful in encouraging men to come forward and deal with the issue. Just one guy's opinion here. There are many wiser than me.

BTW, re the story in Pres. Hinckley's talk, I am on the wife's side. Her response does not seem over the top to me at all.

I don't think I have enough information to be able to judge that one. It is hard for me to think of anything I would not forgive my spouse as she lay dying a painful death of cancer, but I have not lived that woman's life.

I don't know any better approach than the one we have. I'm just reacting out loud to the anecdote Rocky shared and other similar things I have heard. That does seem like an over the top reaction. Maybe the church really has nothing to do with that, or maybe it really is so serious that it ought to end a marriage and I am just not seeing it. Maybe the risk of not being "tough" on this issue are greater than the risk I am talking about. I'm serious, maybe all that is true. I'm probably willing at this point to back off of my previous statement that we are doing something counterproductive, still, it is something to think about.

[UtahDan]

I'm not attacking a strawman, and I know that some people have defended porn in other threads. I was merely stating my own reaction to porn, absent the ranting vitriol that I had used in the past. I think the fear-mongering about porn are wrong and wrong-headed. It is not adultery. I think the production thereof is far more grievous than its consumption. However, I think an intellectual approach to why you shouldn't view porn, coupled with inspired words like Pres. Hinckley's cited talk are the correct way to approach the problem.

For a pop-culture take on why porn in bad, check out Neutral Milk Hotel's Song Against Sex:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zVeDMJYRA1g&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zVeDMJYRA1g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Nice imagery with "breaking my spear."

I agree with all of that, particularly your praise of my "breaking your spear" metaphor.

[ERCougar]

I think porn is a much bigger problem than over-the-top reactions to it are. That seems to me an odd thing to worry about. Just my opinion.

In this fairly definitive talk on the spiritual aspects of the subject, Pres. Hinckley does not teach that viewing porn is the equivalent of adultery. That is what seems like a straw man to me. Who is saying that, other than people in anecdotal accounts? Is that being taught by GAs somewhere? (Serious question, I don't know.)

BTW, re the story in Pres. Hinckley's talk, I am on the wife's side. Her response does not seem over the top to me at all.

I'm not sure that it's being taught (although I'm not sure it's not, either), but Rocky's story is not the first of those that I've heard and it would suggest that at least this woman considers it to be the equivalent of infidelity. So if it's not being taught, the message is getting there somehow, as I don't know a single woman outside of the Church who would view porn this way.

And no, I don't agree that porn is a bigger problem than the over-the-top reaction to it. It's here and available, and our question is how to deal with it. The problem with the over-the-top reaction in my mind is that it: 1) drives out all rationality in dealing with the problem, and thus prevents good, smart solutions, and 2) is more likely to induce shame in those involved, making it less likely that they'll seek help from those who can aid in attaining good, smart solutions. In your missionary example, I suspect that a large reason why he didn't go to the bishop (or someone else who could help him) early on is that he felt significant shame and felt like he was uniquely "bad". Or maybe he was afraid of some sort of discipline (but that's another discussion...). How much pain would have been avoided if he had realized that about every boy has viewed some pornography, but that he seemed to have a predilection for it, one that would prevent him from making the most of himself, and that he might need some help with it? Remove the moral baggage (I doubt he has a problem seeing it as wrong), and just treat it in a rational non-judgmental way, much like someone who has a problem with junk food, and I think we'll have a lot more success.

[ERCougar]

I think porn is a much bigger problem than over-the-top reactions to it are. That seems to me an odd thing to worry about. Just my opinion.

In this fairly definitive talk on the spiritual aspects of the subject, Pres. Hinckley does not teach that viewing porn is the equivalent of adultery. That is what seems like a straw man to me. Who is saying that, other than people in anecdotal accounts? Is that being taught by GAs somewhere? (Serious question, I don't know.)

BTW, re the story in Pres. Hinckley's talk, I am on the wife's side. Her response does not seem over the top to me at all.

I'm with UD on this one--we don't have enough information. I think the wife is justified in her response, as he seems to be interested in deathbed repentance when he didn't seem too interested in changing during his entire life. But what are his real sins? Is it all pornography? Or is it the constant criticism and mistreatment? Maybe they're intertwined somewhat, but not necessarily--there are kind people who look at porn.

I'm not trying to justify pornography, and I'm certainly not disagreeing with the prophet, but I'm not crazy about this approach. We don't need more black-and-white thinking on this matter--we need to recognize shades of gray. Recognize that they're not white and that they need changing, but that they're not black either. Not all of those who indulge in pornography are abusive hypocrites in leadership positions in the church.

This man is actually another example of my point--do you think that his public persona (with his church leadership positions) prevented him from dealing with a problem that just seemed too shameful to him? The more of these stories I hear the more I'm convinced that the problem is not a lack of recognition of evil, but of shame and hiding.

[TripletDaddy]

Unless I am mistaken, RobinFinderson is the only poster that has come out in favor of porn as a serious martial aid.

He has also revealed that he expects his son to do all kinds of drugs and that when the time comes, he hopes that they get high together.

So I would take it for what it's worth.

[RobinFinderson]

Porn is just a genre of film. To categorically demonize it makes no sense. Sure, there is a lot of porn that debases people, but even some of that is sort of interesting in what it reveals about people and the human condition.

There is an acclaimed portrait photographer (and I am forgetting which one) who would ask his subjects to jump. He would photograph them in the air. His purpose was to capture that unguarded moment in a millisecond of flight. Screwing is full of similar revelatory moments. I think Milan Kundera's character Tomas (The Unbearable Lightness of Being) does well in describing this when he explains his womanizing as an attempt to explore human idiosyncrasies. It is interesting!

Porn is a problem for Mormons in the same way that electrical appliances are a problem for the Amish.

[UtahDan]

RobinFinderson is the only poster that has come out in favor of porn as a serious martial aid.

He has also revealed that he expects his son to do all kinds of drugs and that when the time comes, he hopes that they get high together.

So I would take it for what it's worth.

Enough with you and your appeals to authority.

[SeattleUte]

Porn is a problem for Mormons in the same way that electrical appliances are a problem for the Amish.

LOL! Your best line ever. Yes, that might be seen as damning with faint praise, but it really is a great line in anybody's book!

[I.J. Reilly]

Porn is a problem for Mormons in the same way that electrical appliances are a problem for the Amish.

Those Mormons sure are quaint.