Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News

[Northwestcoug]

I also believe God set things up from the beginning and got out of the way.

That helps with the dissonance of my worldly trials in the face of incomprehensible cruelty that most of humanity has endured for thousands of years. But at some point you have to ask, if he's not going to help out those who need it most, what's the point of all the unnecessary suffering? If getting a body and proving them herewith really is the reason for this existence, surely there was a better plan to teach christianity to all his children, and to test them the least amount needed to facilitate their exaltation. Rather than (waves hands in the air) all this.

I heard this somewhere and I agree with it. The original mormon concept of the preexistence really did a great job explaining all the injustices in this world. I mean it was racist and cruel, but it helped frame the human experience with a just God rewarding us according to what we did in the preexistence. It made some sense that since my life was relatively easy I must have been a general in the army that kicked out Satan and I was reserved for this final time, rather than the fence sitters and other ne're-do-wells who barely did enough to get a body and not much else. But now that it isn't doctrine anymore, we have to come to grips with the reality that the vast majority of God's children really had a shitty existence, seemingly through no fault of their own. And..that God was/is OK with that. I'm not claiming that it can't be done faithfully, but it is a tall order.

[Green Monstah]

That helps with the dissonance of my worldly trials in the face of incomprehensible cruelty that most of humanity has endured for thousands of years. But at some point you have to ask, if he's not going to help out those who need it most, what's the point of all the unnecessary suffering? If getting a body and proving them herewith really is the reason for this existence, surely there was a better plan to teach christianity to all his children, and to test them the least amount needed to facilitate their exaltation. Rather than (waves hands in the air) all this.

I heard this somewhere and I agree with it. The original mormon concept of the preexistence really did a great job explaining all the injustices in this world. I mean it was racist and cruel, but it helped frame the human experience with a just God rewarding us according to what we did in the preexistence. It made some sense that since my life was relatively easy I must have been a general in the army that kicked out Satan and I was reserved for this final time, rather than the fence sitters and other ne're-do-wells who barely did enough to get a body and not much else. But now that it isn't doctrine anymore, we have to come to grips with the reality that the vast majority of God's children really had a shitty existence, seemingly through no fault of their own. And..that God was/is OK with that. I'm not claiming that it can't be done faithfully, but it is a tall order.

I think the answer is a clear and resounding “he’s not.”Whether he cannot or will not is the only question that remains for me.

The interesting aspect of suffering is that we all suffer, but in very different ways and for very different reasons. It’s baked into the human experience. I’m gravitating (kicking and screaming.hahaha) toward the need to just accept whatever fate life gives me. It seems it’s the only solution.

But as I move in that direction, I start to find the notion of providence to be somewhat disgusting. And when people testify of god intervening for their trifles, it frustrates me. You and your lost wallet don’t need providence like the starving child half way round the world. God, if tou can intervene, leave my wallet to me and go where you’re needed.

[All-American]

I've been hanging out with nieces and nephews this week. One of them is about a year old and got stuck in the basement for fifteen minutes without anyone knowing it. When someone realized it and got him, the poor little guy was a wreck-- just devastated that he would be abandoned and left in that dark place all by himself. It was all we could do to get him to calm down and get back in control. To an adult or even an older kid, this would have been no big deal. To this little one, it was sheer terror.

I think a lot of the human experience is like that. Perspective and hindsight will make a lot of it make more sense. Someday, the atonement will cure all that ails us; the dead will be raised, the broken will be fixed, and the lost will be found and restored to their loved ones. Hopefully then, we will look back at the episodes where we were locked in the basement with a bit more understanding.

And maybe then, we'll understand a bit more about why God sometimes intervened and sometimes didn't. I think of the brother of Jared, who came to the Lord with two problems. "Lord, what do we do about the air?" "Here's the plan: make two holes, engineering them according to this design, and strategically placing them in these locations, opening the valve at certain opportunities. Follow these detailed instructions and execute according to plan." "Great! What about the light?" "Oh, that? You're on your own. Let me know when you come up with something." Why he addressed the one plan and not the other, who can say. But it works out.

[Green Monstah]

Appreciate the kind response, AA.

[falafel]

If there were not a wide spectrum of responses, then there would be no need for revelation (or enticings of the Holy Spirit) to which we can yield because our response would exclusively be driven by genetics, instinct and our environment.

The enticings of the Holy Spirit or revelation help us make the choice (agency) to step beyond genetics, instinct and environment.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, at least in relation to my post you responded to. My point was that your anecdotal evidence doesn't outweigh anyone else's anecdotal evidence.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My favorite quote from Rudy:

Father Cavanaugh: "Son, in thirty-five years of religious studies, I've come up with only two hard, incontrovertible facts; there is a God, and, I'm not him."

I don't know why God allows suffering, but I have felt God's love to a degree that I cannot deny it. When someone expresses gratitude for God helping them in some way, even with minor things, I allow them the grace to rejoice and take comfort in that. Why wouldn't I? It's not my experience -who am I to judge? If you are in a place when your response to something like that is cold, hard cynicism or even "disgust", I feel bad for you. That seems like a miserable way to go through life.

[tooblue]

I'm not sure I understand your point here, at least in relation to my post you responded to. My point was that your anecdotal evidence doesn't outweigh anyone else's anecdotal evidence.

The challenge is, my "evidence" as you label it isn't anecdotal. Unless you are suggesting what I have written is untrue and unreliable, which I find terribly cynical. What I have written is true, it did occur, at times it has been devastating and as a counter point to Green Monstah's experience, my experience suggests that the spectrum or diversity of experiences are all equally weighted in the eyes of God.

[Moliere]

Appreciate the kind response, AA.

Hey GM, welcome to the Mormon Deist side. Glad you could make it.

A life without suffering isn’t a life worth living.

[falafel]

The challenge is, my "evidence" as you label it isn't anecdotal. Unless you are suggesting what I have written is untrue and unreliable, which I find terribly cynical. What I have written is true, it did occur, at times it has been devastating and as a counter point to Green Monstah's experience, my experience suggests that the spectrum or diversity of experiences are all equally weighted in the eyes of God.

Of course I'm not suggesting you are lying or are unreliable. Good news there is that you can save your observations of my cynicism for a more appropriate time. Honestly, no disrespect.

However, your experience IS anecdotal, especially since you are trying to extrapolate from your experience to counter or undermine GM's experience. You are one data point. GM is one data point. Every other survivor of abuse is an individual data point. Your experience has zero bearing on GM and his has zero bearing on yours, and both of your experiences have no bearing on anyone else's experience. Its just information.

FTR, I never contended anything about the weight of those experiences "in the eyes of God." I don't even know why God would weigh these experiences at all.

[tooblue]

Of course I'm not suggesting you are lying or are unreliable. Good news there is that you can save your observations of my cynicism for a more appropriate time. Honestly, no disrespect.

However, your experience IS anecdotal, especially since you are trying to extrapolate from your experience to counter or undermine GM's experience. You are one data point. GM is one data point. Every other survivor of abuse is an individual data point. Your experience has zero bearing on GM and his has zero bearing on yours, and both of your experiences have no bearing on anyone else's experience. Its just information.

FTR, I never contended anything about the weight of those experiences "in the eyes of God." I don't even know why God would weigh these experiences at all.

Just information? Then isn't everything just information and any experience shared on a message board, person to person, in a book, in an art exhibit, in a court of law have zero bearing on not just GM but you and I and everyone? That strikes me as a strange position to take considering your judgement of my supposed intent.

To counter does not summarily mean to "undermine". To speak in opposition is a function of human dialogue and is essential to the exchange of ideas. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here—just sharing information?

Further, what then is a data point, if not a data point? Can a data point only be validated so long as it is coupled with other data points and is there a minimum or maximum? In this thread, in this recent discussion, there are two like data points that have been offered, and interestingly despite the fact the data points counter one another they also corroborate one another.

You advanced the idea of weightiness in a forum that bears the title "The Foyer," representing the foyer commonly found in an LDS chapel where religious discussions occur. The concept of weightiness is prevalent in LDS theology as it relates to accountability, sin and judgment. Again, this is a forum discussing religion and in particular (specifically in this recent thread) God and whether or not he intervenes and revelation can be considered a phenomena measurable by the individual experiences of those who consider themselves religiously observant. The extrapolation is not credited to you or I but to the forum and its function.

[Green Monstah]

My favorite quote from Rudy:

Father Cavanaugh: "Son, in thirty-five years of religious studies, I've come up with only two hard, incontrovertible facts; there is a God, and, I'm not him."

I don't know why God allows suffering, but I have felt God's love to a degree that I cannot deny it. When someone expresses gratitude for God helping them in some way, even with minor things, I allow them the grace to rejoice and take comfort in that. Why wouldn't I? It's not my experience -who am I to judge? If you are in a place when your response to something like that is cold, hard cynicism or even "disgust", I feel bad for you. That seems like a miserable way to go through life.

That is a great quote.

Im not miserable. Thanks.

[BigFatMeanie]

My favorite quote from Rudy:

Father Cavanaugh: "Son, in thirty-five years of religious studies, I've come up with only two hard, incontrovertible facts; there is a God, and, I'm not him."

I don't know why God allows suffering, but I have felt God's love to a degree that I cannot deny it. When someone expresses gratitude for God helping them in some way, even with minor things, I allow them the grace to rejoice and take comfort in that. Why wouldn't I? It's not my experience -who am I to judge? If you are in a place when your response to something like that is cold, hard cynicism or even "disgust", I feel bad for you. That seems like a miserable way to go through life.

I also like Father Cavanaugh’s thoughts on prayer:

”Prayer is something we do on our own time. The answers come in God’s time.”

[falafel]

Just information? Then isn't everything just information and any experience shared on a message board, person to person, in a book, in an art exhibit, in a court of law have zero bearing on not just GM but you and I and everyone? That strikes me as a strange position to take considering your judgement of my supposed intent.

To counter does not summarily mean to "undermine". To speak in opposition is a function of human dialogue and is essential to the exchange of ideas. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here—just sharing information?

Further, what then is a data point, if not a data point? Can a data point only be validated so long as it is coupled with other data points and is there a minimum or maximum? In this thread, in this recent discussion, there are two like data points that have been offered, and interestingly despite the fact the data points counter one another they also corroborate one another.

You advanced the idea of weightiness in a forum that bears the title "The Foyer," representing the foyer commonly found in an LDS chapel where religious discussions occur. The concept of weightiness is prevalent in LDS theology as it relates to accountability, sin and judgment. Again, this is a forum discussing religion and in particular (specifically in this recent thread) God and whether or not he intervenes and revelation can be considered a phenomena measurable by the individual experiences of those who consider themselves religiously observant. The extrapolation is not credited to you or I but to the forum and its function.

I think we are talking past each other. That's okay, I don't have a real dog in this fight. I'm sorry for your trauma and I don't mean to criticize your or anyone's experience with abuse. I'm going to bow out.

[tooblue]

I think we are talking past each other. That's okay, I don't have a real dog in this fight. I'm sorry for your trauma and I don't mean to criticize your or anyone's experience with abuse. I'm going to bow out.

We must be just otters ...

otters.jpg

[falafel]

We must be just otters ...

otters.jpg

You are a good dude, tooblue. I enjoy your posts and perspective.