Fast Offerings

[The Rambam]

Okay, fair enough. I'm a little pressed for time (the Thanksgiving lull is over) so please forgive me for not taking the time to do research on this.

It's my firm understanding that tithing money does not support the activities of Zions Securities, which is behind the downtown Salt Lake real estate development. (A development that is actually saving downtown Salt Lake City, in my opinion, but that's another story.) So to say tithing is "subsidizing The Roof Restaurant and the Temple Square lights and the entire downtown SLC revitalization project" is simply inaccurate.

I am not privy to the inner financial details of the Church, but such intimacy is not necessary to my points. If the Church has a for-profit arm that has an extra 3-4 billion to invest in building offices, condos and shopping malls in downtown SLC, I find that very saddening. Not because I hate SLC and want to see it turn into a slum. But because it means that the Church of Jesus Christ has been literally hoarding billions of dollars that could have been spent for things like building a homeless shelter in Utah county or giving merit based scholarships to third-world Latter-day Saints or curing AIDS in Africa or building life-saving dikes in Bangladesh and so forth.

Let me be clear. Making downtown SLC beautifully commercial is very nice and I'm for it. But not over so many other possible ways to spend the money that are more in keeping, IMHO, with the tri-fold mission of the Church. They might have a much lower rate of return, or even be complete charity, but since when did ROI gain a primary place in the prayer circle?

Also, to say "I also pay fast offerings which subsidizes the mortgages on many Mansions" is pure speculation. Besides, fast offerings are under the control of individual bishops. If Ram-Bam is angry about how bishops allocate fast offerings, that's an issue that goes well beyond Church HQ's administration of Church funds. Being an old guy, I've been in many bishoprics and have prepared and signed many fast offering checks. I've seen many checks for rent, but never one for a mortgage payment.

As mentioned previously, Stephen Robinson at BYU raised the issue as a moral quandary, just as I have here, in a NT class at BYU in the early 90s. Regardless of whether it is happening to the tune of 100 thousand dollars or one million dollars or 100 million dollars, the moral question of propriety is one worthy of wrestling with for those interested righteous stewardship of sacred funds. Or are you saying that the only person able to think about or discuss the stewardships of a Bishop is a Bishop (or those with authority over a Bishop)?

It's also important to remember that under the guidelines given to bishops, fast offering support is always supposed to be short-term and the recipient should provide some service to the Church while receiving assistance. Generally, bishops err on the side of mercy in making such decisions. And the whole idea of giving fast offerings is that we trust the bishop to allocate the funds according to the guidance of the Spirit and his gift of discernment. Bishops are supposed to "seek out the poor and needy" and find places to use those funds, which truly are sacred. If the bishop screws up with those funds he is accountable to the Lord. It's not our business as donors.

Again it sounds like you are saying we have no right to discuss worthy/unworthy uses of fast offering money because we aren't current Bishops. "It's not our business as donors." I am not saying my Bishop, or any other specific Bishop, is an unrighteous steward. I'm not saying my Bishop should check with me before he makes a house payment. I am saying that it is an issue that matters to us, not as donors, but as members. I think it is a righteous discussion and fruitful in both gospel learning and preparation for future Bishops.

One could make the argument that tithing indirectly subsidizes Zions Securities projects, but if that's the argument, then Ram-Bam should say so. Besides, one can make that argument about every asset the Church owns, e.g., BYU athletics, Bonneville International and its radio stations, the Deseret News, and so forth.

I am not opposed to the Church of Jesus Christ owning assets that produce cash or its holding some savings. I hope the Church of Jesus Christ using the income from its assets and savings in a manner that most clearly matches the priorities of the Savior. And I question whether Christ cares more about wonderfully beautiful shopping centers across from Temple Square than the advance of curable childhood illness in the third world (and so forth).

Again, it is not the mall I am opposed to. I am all for vibrant alive downtowns in America--especially SLC. I would support a state-wide bond to fund the project. I would hope it is profitable enough to attract private investment. I would be thrilled if the publicly owned Zion's Bank funded the developers. But I suspect money under the direct control of Apostles of Christ might find a more Christ-like use. Christ fed the hungry and cured the sick, he never used his time or power to spur economic development or urban blight. People matter more than projects to the Lord. To the extent of billions of dollars, the current Church is loudly proclaiming that this project is more important than other causes which would directly assist suffering children of God. I would be interested to hear your justification as to why this is proper (unless it is just an appeal to authority--that is no justification, only an abdication of reason).

Ram-bam seems to be full of anger towards the Church. I am sorry for that and really don't wish to offend him/her. Ram-Bam's posts about the Church do tend to be pretty much like wild, angry swings, IMO.

Passion is easily be mistaken for anger. I'm passionate because I care.

[The_Tick]

Rambam,

I would be bothered by the church building dams and bridges and dikes in 3rd world countries.

I would also be opposed to them spending billions of dollars on AIDS research.

This is the current job of government no?

If the Church spends 10 billion dollars on AIDS research in Africa, and there is still no cure after the 10 billion, was it money well spent? I am sure the US Government has spent well into the trillions on AIDS research to no avail. Why continue to burn more money?

But then again I am opposed to the USofA handing out money to any country other than the USofA while we have so many problems here.

Fix your home before you fix your neighborhood has always been my philosphy.

I will admit thought that I am not as smart as some folks on here and look at things with a simplistic viewpoint.

[LA Ute]

Passion is easily be mistaken for anger. I'm passionate because I care.

Thanks, I think I see your position in a different (more positive) light now.

I am in a rush at work, but do not want to make you feel ignored. Just a couple of quick comments -- maybe I can say more later.

1. I trust bishops to handle fast offering funds properly. I hope no one here minds me saying that I have a testimony of fast offerings and the good they do for both the giver and the recipient. I think the whole program is inspiring and wonderful. The discussion you suggest about how the program should be run is a healthy and appropriate one, but it is somewhat academic because at the end of the discussion, the bishops still have to decide how to allocate the funds in each case and to be accountable for those decisions.

2. I do not think there are more than a few people on earth who understand the Church's finances well. It is my very limited understanding, however, that the activities of the Church's income-producing assets actually subsidize the Church's activities, at least to some extent. In any case, I feel just fine about letting the Corporation of the President run those businesses, mainly because to me, that is part of what sustaining the First Presidency means, and I am in no position to have much of an opinion about how the businesses should be managed.

3. I don't have the numbers at hand, but the Church does have a massive humanitarian relief operation ready to go, 24-7. It spends many millions of dollars in that operation every year and blesses the lives of many people. I think you probably know that, and you may think even more resources should be devoted. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, and you may even be right. I am simply content to leave those decisions to the authorities I have sustained. I recognize that others will see that differently. To me, it is a matter of conscience, and that is what my conscience tells me to do.

Make sense? I am sorry that I was tough on you (I prefer to think I was just passionate - but I could have been kinder). These are matters on which reasonable people disagree, and not worth getting angry about. Passionate, yes; angry, no.

[The Rambam]

Thanks, I think I see your position in a different (more positive) light now.

I am in a rush at work, but do not want to make you feel ignored. Just a couple of quick comments -- maybe I can say more later.

1. I trust bishops to handle fast offering funds properly. I hope no one here minds me saying that I have a testimony of fast offerings and the good they do for both the giver and the recipient. I think the whole program is inspiring and wonderful. The discussion you suggest about how the program should be run is a healthy and appropriate one, but it is somewhat academic because at the end of the discussion, the bishops still have to decide how to allocate the funds in each case and to be accountable for those decisions.

2. I do not think there are more than a few people on earth who understand the Church's finances well. It is my very limited understanding, however, that the activities of the Church's income-producing assets actually subsidize the Church's activities, at least to some extent. In any case, I feel just fine about letting the Corporation of the President run those businesses, mainly because to me, that is part of what sustaining the First Presidency means, and I am in no position to have much of an opinion about how the businesses should be managed.

3. I don't have the numbers at hand, but the Church does have a massive humanitarian relief operation ready to go, 24-7. It spends many millions of dollars in that operation every year and blesses the lives of many people. I think you probably know that, and you may think even more resources should be devoted. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, and you may even be right. I am simply content to leave those decisions to the authorities I have sustained. I recognize that others will see that differently. To me, it is a matter of conscience, and that is what my conscience tells me to do.

Make sense? I am sorry that I was tough on you (I prefer to think I was just passionate - but I could have been kinder). These are matters on which reasonable people disagree, and not worth getting angry about. Passionate, yes; angry, no.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. A few quick reply thoughts:

1. I trust Bishops to make the inspired decision the vast majority of the time for the local situation. But as has been posted in this thread by others, the general rule given to Bishops is be self sustaining. Bishops are not given any international context in which to make decisions. The Spirit can only move people in ignorance so far and I believe most Bishops never consider for a second the needs of the poorest on the planet when deciding to give or not give aid. It is the institutional global Church leadership's role to provide that perspective and I don't think they do so very well.

2. My quibble is not with the specific management--I trust that they generally hire good managers and put together competent boards of directors. My concern is that the Church of Christ is in the business of making money in the free market at all. It is one thing for the Church of Christ to have some savings in the stock market or invested in a large private equity fund (fine), it is another thing for the Church of Christ to be a competing commercial interest in land development or commercial ranching or broadcast media, etc (not so fine IMHO). How does it perfect the saints, redeem the dead or proclaim the gospel to spend billions on downtown rejuvenation? The answer given by the Church is that a nice downtown will impress visitors to Temple Square and give a favorable impression of the Church. Temple Square is visited by about 5 million times a year (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4092436AAbGPAL). But most of those visits are repeat visits by members.

Yes, it is important for both missionary work and edifying the saints to have a nice mall and cool condos across the street from the Temple. But is this marginal improvement in image worth billions of dollars that could be saving millions of lives or providing education to millions of children or curing millions of kids from deadly diseases? Obviously this (and the investment return possibilities) in the minds of the leaders of Christ's Church is worth the opportunity cost. I'm not so certain Christ would agree. I think it is a discussion worth having.

3. The Church wants you to believe that it does a lot of humanitarian work, but it doesn't. After Katrina they had a press conference and issued press releases (http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsr...atrina-victims) to announce it sent 26 semi-trucks full of supplies to LDS Stake Centers in the region. A significant portion of these supplies were hygiene kits consisting of toothpaste and soap and the like. The value of 26 semis full of hygiene kits and shovels and water purification tablets and generators is not likely more than a couple of million dollars. It is not nothing and commendable, but not a significant amount for the Church. We are spending billions on making a nice downtown near Temple Square to give a good impression to visitors, but we only could spare a couple million (at most) for Katrina relief. Of course many thousands of members contributed their own time and money to go down there and clean up and help rebuild. But this constitutes donations by individual members tithing and extra-fast offering funds and is not a sacrifice for Church HQ.

[Mormon Red Death]

3. The Church wants you to believe that it does a lot of humanitarian work, but it doesn't. After Katrina they had a press conference and issued press releases (http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsr...atrina-victims) to announce it sent 26 semi-trucks full of supplies to LDS Stake Centers in the region. A significant portion of these supplies were hygiene kits consisting of toothpaste and soap and the like. The value of 26 semis full of hygiene kits and shovels and water purification tablets and generators is not likely more than a couple of million dollars. It is not nothing and commendable, but not a significant amount for the Church. We are spending billions on making a nice downtown near Temple Square to give a good impression to visitors, but we only could spare a couple million (at most) for Katrina relief. Of course many thousands of members contributed their own time and money to go down there and clean up and help rebuild. But this constitutes donations by individual members tithing and extra-fast offering funds and is not a sacrifice for Church HQ.

Rambam... I think you make good points about things that should be discussed. I do think your wrong on the point above. Below is the text for the link about the church's humanitarian service. The fact is the church is doing a considerable amount of humanitarian service. You make it seem like we arent doing very much.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c5a2558fcc599110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

Good evening. Tonight the scripture passages “As ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me” (Matthew 25:40) and “Remember in all things the poor and the needy” (D&C 52:40) take on special meaning as we review highlights of humanitarian endeavors during the past year.

A briefing on humanitarian assistance was recently given to the General Welfare Committee of the Church. The committee chair, then President Gordon B. Hinckley, expressed profound gratitude for the generosity of members and those not of our faith who have made this outreach possible. In behalf of the General Welfare Committee, we express our deep appreciation to the many individuals, families, quorums, and Relief Society and Young Women groups who are the good Samaritans of today.

In 2007 the Church responded to major earthquakes in 5 countries, massive fires in 6 countries, hunger and famine in 18 countries, and flooding and severe storms in 34 countries. In total the Church and its members responded to 170 major events—nearly one every two days for the entire year. It was a busy year with many opportunities to serve.

In addition to responding to natural disasters, we undertook thousands of public health initiatives during the year. Over 1 million people benefited from Church-sponsored clean water projects in 25 countries. More than 60,500 people received wheelchairs in 60 nations. Early this year Sister Burton and I, with the South America North Area Presidency, participated with the First Lady of Colombia in a wheelchair presentation. Tears came easily as receivers and their caregivers expressed their appreciation. In 11 countries, over 54,000 individuals now enjoy improved vision. Over 16,500 health-care professionals in 23 countries were trained in infant neonatal resuscitation; they, in turn, will train many others. In a quest to eliminate measles, 2.8 million children and youth in 10 countries received immunizations. The combined effects of these outreach endeavors directly touched nearly 4 million people in 85 countries.

In August a major 8.0 earthquake killed 520 people and destroyed more than 58,000 homes in southern Peru. In a marvelous display of love and concern, each of the 29 stakes in Lima, Peru, provided basic assistance to ward areas in the devastated region.

With the wonderful assistance of missionaries, a plan is under way to help individuals rebuild their homes and lives and replace several schools. As many as 400 homes may ultimately be built, with individuals, friends, and family doing much of the work. Supervision, coordination, and training are under the direction of Elder and Sister Alan Layton.

Late in the year a combination of dry weather and high winds fueled wildfires in southern California. These wildfires forced over one million people from their homes. At least 1,500 homes were destroyed. In response the Church provided cleaning kits, blankets, hygiene kits, and food. Over 5,000 Mormon Helping Hands along with missionaries cleaned, cooked, comforted, and cared for those affected.

One note of appreciation said: “Please forward a great big thank you to all the Latter-day Saints who have been working so hard in my neighborhood. The Mormons have been here constantly with meals, hugs, prayers, and helping to repair and clear property. They … uplift my community, heal hearts, and repair homes in the San Diego hills.”1

Reflecting on the experience, one stake president said: “One of our projects was to assist cleaning up around the local Baptist church. … We assigned 25 youth. … The Baptists said that they would have lots of donuts and coffee for us. We told them the coffee would go stale, but our youth could handle as many donuts as they could provide!”2

Heavy rains triggered flooding across the midwestern United States, Oregon, and Washington. Volunteers came with supplies from the bishops’ storehouse to provide help to those in need.

When Church representatives in Findlay, Ohio, presented a donation to the local Red Cross chapter, a passerby spotted them in their yellow Mormon Helping Hands T-shirts. She walked in and held up her camera phone with a picture of four Helping Hands and exclaimed, “They just saved my home!”3 Then she hugged everyone in sight.

A shipment of food was delivered to a local food bank. When it arrived, the manager had a startled look on his face and said, “How did you know? I just gave out my last loaf of bread and planned to lock the doors. How did you know?”

Working with the World Health Organization to eliminate measles as a killer of almost a million children each year, over 54,000 Church members volunteered to help organize the effort. A Church member in Nigeria wrote: “I called our labor the ‘rescue of the innocent.’ We went house to house and village hall to village hall. A woman told us she had lost three children to measles. She told her story with such grace and passion that there was not a dry eye in the house, mine included.” Our volunteer observed, “The things you do for yourself are gone when you are gone, but the things that you do for others remain as your legacy.”4

Our four-year effort to help those devastated by a tsunami in Indonesia and southern Asia also continued. Funding was provided to help build 902 homes, with 3 community centers, 24 village water systems, 15 schools, and 3 medical centers. A community leader said: “Community members feel happy and blessed to have the community center. … It is a place [where] we can pray … and teach the children. … Thank you to [the Church] for building this center for our people. … We will pray to God to give [the Church] blessings and success in the future. Thank you.”5

In Ethiopia, communities helped to access clean drinking water. The Church drilled wells and constructed storage tanks. Communities organized a water committee and dug the trenches needed to pipe the water from the storage tanks to each village. In some cases this was a distance of over three miles (5 km).

Some communities struggled to meet their commitments for trenching. The soil was hard, dry, and full of clay, making digging very difficult. In one community a school of 1,500 students suspended normal school activities for a period of time, and everyone participated in digging the remaining sections of the trench. As they worked, other members of the community joined in. At one point there was over a mile-long line of people digging.

Thank you for your compassion, your goodness, and your generosity. May we press forward to lighten the load of neighbors, encourage and assist the downtrodden, open our purses to assist the poor, and extend our helping hands. I bear witness of the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel and pray that we may continue to enjoy the blessings of true discipleship as we quietly reach out to others. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[The Rambam]

Thanks Mormon Red Death. Bishop Burton’s comments are in bullet points and my comments following each point.

• The Church and its members responded to 170 major events—nearly one every two days for the entire year. It was a busy year with many opportunities to serve.

The key here is “and its members”. The Latter-day Saints will do almost anything when asked. This is commendable and should be shouted from the rooftops. But the Church itself does very little. By this I mean, considering the wealth at its fingertips the institutional church gives a meaningless amount and has shown that charitable work is not its priority.

• Over 1 million people benefited from Church-sponsored clean water projects in 25 countries.

This statement stretches the truth. Typical of the Church’s water projects is the one described here: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...-water-project
A French non-profit heads the project (found it, engineered it and got it approved by the government), the Church allows a volunteer missionary couple to work on the ground as a liaison with the locals and throws in a few thousand dollars for pipe costs, local people put in all the manual labor. It will take three years to complete and when done will provide water for an estimated 160,000 people.

The press release linked above gives a very positive spin but is honest about it. Elder Burton’s comments lead you to believe that the Church is actually the mover and creator of the project. Misleading.

Good for the Church for doing anything, but it really is about the service of humanitarian missionaries and not the wonderful charity of the Church who is in fact doing almost nothing—if the Church were a corporation all their charitable giving would not be an amount sufficient to be a material event requiring disclosure.

Meanwhile the WHO reports that over 1 Billion people don’t have access to clean drinking water. If President Monson called all members to solve the problem and make sure every person had free access to clean drinking water and then put his checkbook behind the effort all 1 billion would have clean water within a decade.

• More than 60,500 people received wheelchairs in 60 nations.
An amazing feel good video about the Church’s involvement in wheelchair donation is found at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX7DIDVxNRE
The Church, again doesn’t do this alone, but partners with The Wheelchair Foundation. The King and Queen of Spain, Nelson Mandela and Mikhail Gorbachev are on the board. Other partners include Rotary International and the Knights of Columbus. They were founded in 2000 and have given out over 750,000 wheelchairs so far.

Typical of the Church’s participation is the following from the Wheelchair Foundation website:
“September 2003 – In a collaborative effort between LDS Charities, The Knights of Columbus, The US Department of State, The US Department of Defense and the Wheelchair Foundation, 5,000 wheelchairs are delivered to physically disabled residents of Afghanistan. “

To sponsor a wheelchair (which includes the cost of a wheelchair, the cost of placement, and the information packet so you can cry about the sad story of who got the wheelchair you paid for (OK that was cynical--sorry) you have to give $150. So if the church paid the full single donation price for the 60,500 wheelchairs it claims to says people received (and not that there is no claim that the Church paid for these directly in cash or alone) it would mean they gave 9 million dollars.

Again, nice but remember they are dumping over 3 billion into the downtown mall/offices/condos. I am just noticing priorities.

• In 11 countries, over 54,000 individuals now enjoy improved vision.

I don’t even know what this means. I am guessing this: http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/hum...-training.html
So what is happening here is LDS doctors donate their time to go train third world doctors in vision care. Also equipment is donated to the local clinic. But notice that the money for the equipment given is thanks to the generosity of other donors. This, like the wheelchair charity above, is done through LDS Charities which raises money from members separate from tithing and fast offerings. I can’t say that there is no tithing or fast offering or business/investment income going to these projects, but I can say with certainty that a significant portion is specifically donated for this purpose—and in this case it looks like all the money was raised from additional contributions.

• Over 16,500 health-care professionals in 23 countries were trained in infant neonatal resuscitation; they, in turn, will train many others.
Same gig as the vision thing. Basically the Church is taking credit for the generosity of individual members while it sits on his hoards of cash.

• In a quest to eliminate measles, 2.8 million children and youth in 10 countries received immunizations.
That the Church probably didn’t pay for. See: http://www.lds.org/library/page/disp...3218-1,00.html They Church doesn’t report any money donated since 2003 for measles immunizations.

Members knock on doors and assist in record-keeping at vaccination sites. Again a worthy sacrifice by the members not requiring HQ to put itself out financially.

• In August a major 8.0 earthquake killed 520 people and destroyed more than 58,000 homes in southern Peru. In a marvelous display of love and concern, each of the 29 stakes in Lima, Peru, provided basic assistance to ward areas in the devastated region. With the wonderful assistance of missionaries, a plan is under way to help individuals rebuild their homes and lives and replace several schools. As many as 400 homes may ultimately be built, with individuals, friends, and family doing much of the work. Supervision, coordination, and training are under the direction of Elder and Sister Alan Layton.

The Church issued a press release after the Peru earthquake to announce that they send a single plane with aid to the country. http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...004e94610aRCRD The plane carried surgical instruments, family food boxes, hygiene kits and tarps. Total cost was almost certainly under a million dollars. I was embarrassed for the Church. In the same release they say they have 430,000 members in Peru. So they sent maybe 2 bucks of aid for each member in the country. Pretty paltry IMHO.
The home building project is limited to leadership and organization by a volunteer missionary couple. Nothing from HQ.

• Late in the year a combination of dry weather and high winds fueled wildfires in southern California. These wildfires forced over one million people from their homes. At least 1,500 homes were destroyed. In response the Church provided cleaning kits, blankets, hygiene kits, and food. Over 5,000 Mormon Helping Hands along with missionaries cleaned, cooked, comforted, and cared for those affected.

All the cleaning kits, blankets and hygiene kites were donated by members who created them in service projects. The Church got the food from the local bishop’s storehouse except some bottled water which was trucked in from SLC. Again heroic effort by the members, very little from HQ.

[The Rambam]

• Heavy rains triggered flooding across the midwestern United States, Oregon, and Washington. Volunteers came with supplies from the bishops’ storehouse to provide help to those in need.

All the local members and local funds.

• Working with the World Health Organization to eliminate measles as a killer of almost a million children each year, over 54,000 Church members volunteered to help organize the effort.

More walking door to door by individual members. Very odd that he brings measles up twice here.

• Our four-year effort to help those devastated by a tsunami in Indonesia and southern Asia also continued. Funding was provided to help build 902 homes, with 3 community centers, 24 village water systems, 15 schools, and 3 medical centers.

A great summary of a very typical Mormon humanitarian project is the effort by the members after that horrible tsunami reported by the Church here: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620a____
It is all the local members all the time. You should be picking up on a theme here.

Bishop Burton does say that “funding was provided”, but remember there was a special fast for the victims of the tsunami. And I also have read about the Church helping fishermen build new boats. I don’t have any idea of how much cash was spent and how much of that was donated specially for the project by rich members—I couldn’t find a link.

• In Ethiopia, communities helped to access clean drinking water. The Church drilled wells and constructed storage tanks. Communities organized a water committee and dug the trenches needed to pipe the water from the storage tanks to each village. In some cases this was a distance of over three miles (5 km).Some communities struggled to meet their commitments for trenching. The soil was hard, dry, and full of clay, making digging very difficult. In one community a school of 1,500 students suspended normal school activities for a period of time, and everyone participated in digging the remaining sections of the trench. As they worked, other members of the community joined in. At one point there was over a mile-long line of people digging.

See for instance http://www.meridianmagazine.com/peop...oom2print.html for the story of one of the wells paid for by the Church in Ethiopia. The total amount donated for this well (with three separate six-spigot water stations throughout town, was under $10 thousand.

* * * * *
So, to sum up what Bishop Burton is talking about here, it seems reasonable to say the Church might have given as much as $20-30 million last year in aid. I wonder if they could do more with their billions than what they are doing. Right now the members do most of the work and donate most of the money (on top of tithing and fast offerings) and the Church takes credit.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Interesting points, Rambam. I don't know enough to comment on your other points, but I can't let this one slide:

Meanwhile the WHO reports that over 1 Billion people don’t have access to clean drinking water. If President Monson called all members to solve the problem and make sure every person had free access to clean drinking water and then put his checkbook behind the effort all 1 billion would have clean water within a decade.

The 1 billion people figure sounds about right, but the idea that the church could solve this problem alone in a decade is nonsense. Unless you are talking about miracles of some sort.

[Surfah]

So, to sum up what Bishop Burton is talking about here, it seems reasonable to say the Church might have given as much as $20-30 million last year in aid. I wonder if they could do more with their billions than what they are doing. Right now the members do most of the work and donate most of the money (on top of tithing and fast offerings) and the Church takes credit.

I don't understand why it matters that the members and even community members who were being served participated in these service projects. Is it so horrible that there was a mile long line of community members digging a ditch? Did Christ himself not ask something of some whom he healed also? And don't the members make up the church? Are they not the body? So who cares that the church responds in kind as the collective church and not brother and sister so and so. How else is the church supposed to administer the aid if not through the local channels? Are you suggesting that the church create an arm that does all of the research, leg work, and funding?

Of course the church could do more with their money. So could all of us right? I feel like even if the church did donate it's billions that there would still be room to gripe that the money was donated to the wrong cause. We're also speculating as to how much money is spent in humanitarian efforts. The bottom line is I trust the "old white shirts" that they have ours and the Lord's bests interests in mind and I will continue to pay my tithes and offerings accordingly.

[ERCougar]

RamBam, whether people agree with you or not, I'm sure glad you're here. This is a better, more interesting board with you around.

[tooblue]

Thanks Mormon Red Death. Bishop Burton’s comments are in bullet points and my comments following each point.

• The Church and its members responded to 170 major events—nearly one every two days for the entire year. It was a busy year with many opportunities to serve.

The key here is “and its members”. The Latter-day Saints will do almost anything when asked. This is commendable and should be shouted from the rooftops. But the Church itself does very little. By this I mean, considering the wealth at its fingertips the institutional church gives a meaningless amount and has shown that charitable work is not its priority.

• Over 1 million people benefited from Church-sponsored clean water projects in 25 countries.

This statement stretches the truth. Typical of the Church’s water projects is the one described here: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...-water-project
A French non-profit heads the project (found it, engineered it and got it approved by the government), the Church allows a volunteer missionary couple to work on the ground as a liaison with the locals and throws in a few thousand dollars for pipe costs, local people put in all the manual labor. It will take three years to complete and when done will provide water for an estimated 160,000 people.

The press release linked above gives a very positive spin but is honest about it. Elder Burton’s comments lead you to believe that the Church is actually the mover and creator of the project. Misleading.

Good for the Church for doing anything, but it really is about the service of humanitarian missionaries and not the wonderful charity of the Church who is in fact doing almost nothing—if the Church were a corporation all their charitable giving would not be an amount sufficient to be a material event requiring disclosure.

Meanwhile the WHO reports that over 1 Billion people don’t have access to clean drinking water. If President Monson called all members to solve the problem and make sure every person had free access to clean drinking water and then put his checkbook behind the effort all 1 billion would have clean water within a decade.

• More than 60,500 people received wheelchairs in 60 nations.
An amazing feel good video about the Church’s involvement in wheelchair donation is found at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX7DIDVxNRE
The Church, again doesn’t do this alone, but partners with The Wheelchair Foundation. The King and Queen of Spain, Nelson Mandela and Mikhail Gorbachev are on the board. Other partners include Rotary International and the Knights of Columbus. They were founded in 2000 and have given out over 750,000 wheelchairs so far.

Typical of the Church’s participation is the following from the Wheelchair Foundation website:
“September 2003 – In a collaborative effort between LDS Charities, The Knights of Columbus, The US Department of State, The US Department of Defense and the Wheelchair Foundation, 5,000 wheelchairs are delivered to physically disabled residents of Afghanistan. “

To sponsor a wheelchair (which includes the cost of a wheelchair, the cost of placement, and the information packet so you can cry about the sad story of who got the wheelchair you paid for (OK that was cynical--sorry) you have to give $150. So if the church paid the full single donation price for the 60,500 wheelchairs it claims to says people received (and not that there is no claim that the Church paid for these directly in cash or alone) it would mean they gave 9 million dollars.

Again, nice but remember they are dumping over 3 billion into the downtown mall/offices/condos. I am just noticing priorities.

• In 11 countries, over 54,000 individuals now enjoy improved vision.

I don’t even know what this means. I am guessing this: http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/hum...-training.html
So what is happening here is LDS doctors donate their time to go train third world doctors in vision care. Also equipment is donated to the local clinic. But notice that the money for the equipment given is thanks to the generosity of other donors. This, like the wheelchair charity above, is done through LDS Charities which raises money from members separate from tithing and fast offerings. I can’t say that there is no tithing or fast offering or business/investment income going to these projects, but I can say with certainty that a significant portion is specifically donated for this purpose—and in this case it looks like all the money was raised from additional contributions.

• Over 16,500 health-care professionals in 23 countries were trained in infant neonatal resuscitation; they, in turn, will train many others.
Same gig as the vision thing. Basically the Church is taking credit for the generosity of individual members while it sits on his hoards of cash.

• In a quest to eliminate measles, 2.8 million children and youth in 10 countries received immunizations.
That the Church probably didn’t pay for. See: http://www.lds.org/library/page/disp...3218-1,00.html They Church doesn’t report any money donated since 2003 for measles immunizations.

Members knock on doors and assist in record-keeping at vaccination sites. Again a worthy sacrifice by the members not requiring HQ to put itself out financially.

• In August a major 8.0 earthquake killed 520 people and destroyed more than 58,000 homes in southern Peru. In a marvelous display of love and concern, each of the 29 stakes in Lima, Peru, provided basic assistance to ward areas in the devastated region. With the wonderful assistance of missionaries, a plan is under way to help individuals rebuild their homes and lives and replace several schools. As many as 400 homes may ultimately be built, with individuals, friends, and family doing much of the work. Supervision, coordination, and training are under the direction of Elder and Sister Alan Layton.

The Church issued a press release after the Peru earthquake to announce that they send a single plane with aid to the country. http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...004e94610aRCRD The plane carried surgical instruments, family food boxes, hygiene kits and tarps. Total cost was almost certainly under a million dollars. I was embarrassed for the Church. In the same release they say they have 430,000 members in Peru. So they sent maybe 2 bucks of aid for each member in the country. Pretty paltry IMHO.
The home building project is limited to leadership and organization by a volunteer missionary couple. Nothing from HQ.

• Late in the year a combination of dry weather and high winds fueled wildfires in southern California. These wildfires forced over one million people from their homes. At least 1,500 homes were destroyed. In response the Church provided cleaning kits, blankets, hygiene kits, and food. Over 5,000 Mormon Helping Hands along with missionaries cleaned, cooked, comforted, and cared for those affected.

All the cleaning kits, blankets and hygiene kites were donated by members who created them in service projects. The Church got the food from the local bishop’s storehouse except some bottled water which was trucked in from SLC. Again heroic effort by the members, very little from HQ.

What is the church? Is it the First Presidency and corporation or is it a body of members?

Your half truths perpetrated here are egregious. You fail to ask one of the most basic questions about the churches involvement and then mischaracterize a willingness to make public comment on SOME of the things the church is doing as taking credit. You're actions are reprehensible and detrimental.

Consider for a moment whether the church is welcome in many of the above situations or countries where they are partnering with other organizations? In other words the church is NOT welcome and may ONLY be involved by partnering with other organizations. Furthermore, would it not be prudent and wise to prop up existing organizations instead of starting new and competing organizations?

Could the individual Stakes, Wards and members act in such instances as stated above without the organizational structure provided by the chruch? You can't have it one way or the other bambam. Individual members could not act without the organizational structure and support provided by the church. And the corporation cannot act without the body of the church doing the work.

Is the church responsible for forcing members to be charitable? Or is it the churches purpose to provide a means by which members can CHOOSE to be charitable?

You supposedly are a politician, yet your understanding of these matters is severely immature. Seriously, how can you put out such ignorant nonsense? I realize you are a Democrat and this is how they think but it is also the difference between Satan's plan and God's plan.

You talk about the aid sent to Peru as if it is a SINGULAR instance of aid. What about the aide that was already there in the form of church welfare for 40, 50, 60 years? So the millions sent there that you diminish as a paltry 1 or 2 dollars is in fact above and beyond the millions or billions that have already been spent and that will be spent after the calamity.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You supposedly are a politician, yet your understanding of these matters is severely immature. Seriously, how can you put out such ignorant nonsense? I realize you are a Democrat and this is how they think but it is also the difference between Satan's plan and God's plan.

That's funny that you would follow up lines 1 & 2 with line 3.

[tooblue]

So, to sum up what Bishop Burton is talking about here, it seems reasonable to say the Church might have given as much as $20-30 million last year in aid. I wonder if they could do more with their billions than what they are doing. Right now the members do most of the work and donate most of the money (on top of tithing and fast offerings) and the Church takes credit.

And what about the millions the church spends yearly in an area before and after a calamity through church welfare, perpetual eduction funds etc.? Your intent to isolate specific instances where aide and money has been sent is a dishonest attempt to denigrate the church. You fail to mention what the church is already doing in such areas and ask an erroneous question; 'but what about the billions?'

If there are billions, it is already being spent, paving the way so the additional millions can be spent

[tooblue]

That's funny that you would follow up lines 1 & 2 with line 3.

Yes, probably not the best way to endear myself to a champion of the New Great Society Obama hopes to usher in.

[tooblue]

And what about the millions the church spends yearly in an area before and after a calamity through church welfare, perpetual eduction funds etc.? Your intent to isolate specific instances where aide and money has been sent is a dishonest attempt to denigrate the church. You fail to mention what the church is already doing in such areas and ask an erroneous question; 'but what about the billions?'

If there are billions, it is already being spent, paving the way so the additional millions can be spent

Seriously, I can't fathom bambams stupidity. You CAN'T have the millions to spend without --what he characterizes as-- the billions!