Fast Offerings

[RockyBalboa]

I hear that "The Millionaire Next Door" makes the same point about doctors.

Here's the trap we're caught in. When people hear that you're a doctor, you're automatically assumed to be rich. So you're expected to give to every cause that comes your way, you're expected to give nice gifts (nicer gifts than you get yourselves or your kids), people think you're a cheapskate if you don't want to go to expensive restaurants with them every weekend, etc. all while the government takes 40% of your money. I can imagine that teenagers are a lot less likely to take the excuse that "we can't buy that because we can't afford it"; we'll see when my kids get older.

It's not a terrible trap to be in, and I certainly wouldn't trade my situation with anyone else, but I think a lot of doctors try to fit the social expectations and get behind.

Not to mention the oodles they get screwed with having to pay out in MalPractice Insurance.

Many states oughta be flogged for their lack of Tort reform.

[Pheidippides]

I guess I'm naive if I choose to believe that the Church helps A LOT of the less fortunate and the needy.

Of course there will be those that decry that it's not enough, but let's be honest here.....is it ever?

Why not focus on a lot of the Good that is done for those in need while continuing to recognize that we still need to be vigilant in our compassion for those who need it?

In my experience (and again, I can only speak to my own ward's situation) we actually have to actively offer to give assistance to people. Most people won't self-identify (other than a couple of families that we regularly help) so we have to (tactfully) approach people identified through HT or other methods.

[ERCougar]

Not to mention the oodles they get screwed with having to pay out in MalPractice Insurance.

Many states oughta be flogged for their lack of Tort reform.

That's not a real popular stand around here...

[il Padrino Ute]

That's not a real popular stand around here...

Well, if it means anything, I'm of this belief as well.

[RockyBalboa]

That's not a real popular stand around here...

I've never been popular anyway.

[Pheidippides]

Well, if it means anything, I'm of this belief as well.

Add this lawyer to the list too.

[cougarobgon]

I'm not changing anything because I know my bishop and I trust him, i.e. I have faith in him based on my evaluation of him. If Rambam is not in the same situation with his bishop, then I'm not going to call him uncharitable.

I am in agreement with you. I trust my bishop/the Church, that my FO will be put to good use.

The only thing that I did not enjoy when having to administer fast offerings was dealing with those members that demanded assistance rather than asking for assistance or dealing with those that were attempting to take advantage of the Church.

[Clark Addison]

In my experience (and again, I can only speak to my own ward's situation) we actually have to actively offer to give assistance to people. Most people won't self-identify (other than a couple of families that we regularly help) so we have to (tactfully) approach people identified through HT or other methods.

Somewhat related to this, back when I was in the know in our ward, we only had one family I was aware of that was a "problem" and had to be forcibly cut off (there may well have been more of them, but I didn't know about them). This family didn't live in a McMansion, in fact they were one of the poorest families in the ward. We didn't even know they existed until the missionaries tracted them out and they mentioned that a couple of them were members. They started occasionally coming to church, and for the next 4 or 5 months, this family took up more human resources than all others in the ward combined. They basically refused to try to get jobs (there were multiple generations in the home) because they preferred to stay at home and play video games. They were not shy at all in asking for money, and were very offended in those times they didn't get what they wanted. In the end, they stopped coming to us, after we refused to buy them a car, and the Baptists down the street found them one.

I hesitate bringing them up, as it reinforces a different stereotype (Poor Selfish Deadbeats vs. Rich Entitles Yuppies). It shows, though, that selfishness and entitlement occur at all stratas of society.

[ERCougar]

Add this lawyer to the list too.

Where were you when I got bloodied up in this argument earlier??? CardiacCoug was conspicuously absent too...

[LA Ute]

It is helpful for those of us who have not been around the block as many times if you attempt to set the record straight on whatever you are taking issue with. Otherwise we don't get the benefit of your insight.

Okay, fair enough. I'm a little pressed for time (the Thanksgiving lull is over) so please forgive me for not taking the time to do research on this.

It's my firm understanding that tithing money does not support the activities of Zions Securities, which is behind the downtown Salt Lake real estate development. (A development that is actually saving downtown Salt Lake City, in my opinion, but that's another story.) So to say tithing is "subsidizing The Roof Restaurant and the Temple Square lights and the entire downtown SLC revitalization project" is simply inaccurate.

Also, to say "I also pay fast offerings which subsidizes the mortgages on many Mansions" is pure speculation. Besides, fast offerings are under the control of individual bishops. If Ram-Bam is angry about how bishops allocate fast offerings, that's an issue that goes well beyond Church HQ's administration of Church funds. Being an old guy, I've been in many bishoprics and have prepared and signed many fast offering checks. I've seen many checks for rent, but never one for a mortgage payment.

It's also important to remember that under the guidelines given to bishops, fast offering support is always supposed to be short-term and the recipient should provide some service to the Church while receiving assistance. Generally, bishops err on the side of mercy in making such decisions. And the whole idea of giving fast offerings is that we trust the bishop to allocate the funds according to the guidance of the Spirit and his gift of discernment. Bishops are supposed to "seek out the poor and needy" and find places to use those funds, which truly are sacred. If the bishop screws up with those funds he is accountable to the Lord. It's not our business as donors.

One could make the argument that tithing indirectly subsidizes Zions Securities projects, but if that's the argument, then Ram-Bam should say so. Besides, one can make that argument about every asset the Church owns, e.g., BYU athletics, Bonneville International and its radio stations, the Deseret News, and so forth.

Ram-bam seems to be full of anger towards the Church. I am sorry for that and really don't wish to offend him/her. Ram-Bam's posts about the Church do tend to be pretty much like wild, angry swings, IMO.

[LA Ute]

That's not a real popular stand around here...

I'm a healthcare lawyer and my clients are all healthcare providers. ( I am not a med-mal lawyer, more of a regulatory-corporate guy) So I find your "stand" very popular! It is with me, anyway.

[CardiacCoug]

Where were you when I got bloodied up in this argument earlier??? CardiacCoug was conspicuously absent too...

Sorry about that. Maybe we can pre-schedule these arguments. I'm always ready to piss on [the vast majority of] medical malpractice laywers.

[CardiacCoug]

I hear that "The Millionaire Next Door" makes the same point about doctors.

Here's the trap we're caught in. When people hear that you're a doctor, you're automatically assumed to be rich. So you're expected to give to every cause that comes your way, you're expected to give nice gifts (nicer gifts than you get yourselves or your kids), people think you're a cheapskate if you don't want to go to expensive restaurants with them every weekend, etc. all while the government takes 40% of your money. I can imagine that teenagers are a lot less likely to take the excuse that "we can't buy that because we can't afford it"; we'll see when my kids get older.

It's not a terrible trap to be in, and I certainly wouldn't trade my situation with anyone else, but I think a lot of doctors try to fit the social expectations and get behind.

I think a major problem with doctors is also unwillingness to seek out or take financial advice. It's a pride thing. A lot of doctors I know pick out their own individual stocks for their investments. They think they can beat the market despite complete lack of financial background or enough time to devote to managing their investments.

Also, complete lack of fear of ever losing a good-paying job, while somewhat justified for most doctors, leads to the tendency to live paycheck-to-paycheck, in my opinion.

[RockyBalboa]

I think a major problem with doctors is also unwillingness to seek out or take financial advice. It's a pride thing. A lot of doctors I know pick out their own individual stocks for their investments. They think they can beat the market despite complete lack of financial background or enough time to devote to managing their investments.

Also, complete lack of fear of ever losing a good-paying job, while somewhat justified for most doctors, leads to the tendency to live paycheck-to-paycheck, in my opinion.

Anyone making anywhere between 20-30K a month at the minimum should NEVER be living paycheck to paycheck...but the majority of them either are or are very upside down in debt.

[Surfah]

I think a major problem with doctors is also unwillingness to seek out or take financial advice. It's a pride thing. A lot of doctors I know pick out their own individual stocks for their investments. They think they can beat the market despite complete lack of financial background or enough time to devote to managing their investments.

Also, complete lack of fear of ever losing a good-paying job, while somewhat justified for most doctors, leads to the tendency to live paycheck-to-paycheck, in my opinion.

Is this common? When I had my real estate development company it seemed that there were always doctors looking to invest.