So, if Hell Existed

[wuapinmon]

What would it be like for you? How would imagine your ultimate 'punishment' to be, in aeternum?

I'm being honest here, I think it would be a world wherein every single person was 13 and we never got any older, grew up, we just all stayed and felt 13.

[Mormon Red Death]

In this store forever.. and ever.

[Surfah]

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...78&postcount=6

[BlueHair]

Endless fast and testimony meetings would be hell for me.

[LiveCoug]

the 2nd and 3rd quarter of tonights Jazz Laker game.

[wuapinmon]

the 2nd and 3rd quarter of tonights Jazz Laker game.

Weak

[PaloAltoCougar]

I was going to put this in the What Are You Reading Now? thread, but it seems better suited to this forum.

The reading for the Come Follow Me lesson three week ago or so included a passage from Mosiah (Mos. 3:39) that, like dozens of other similar scriptures, has always bothered me:

And now, I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man [anyone who transgresses and goes contrary to that which has been spoken and withdraws from the Spirit]; therefore, his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

In view of the Plan of Eternal Progression (which in Church nomenclature seems to have lost favor relative to the lighter and cheerier Plan of Happiness), it seems illogical to suggest that anyone, no matter how sinful, would burn forever. I’ve written off such talk as scriptural hyperbole designed to motivate, not enlighten. My thinking was encapsulated nicely in a recent quote from Bart D. Ehrman:

Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity.

But both LDS and non-LDS teachings seem to accept, even promote, the idea of everlasting torment. So I bought and just finished Ehrman’s new book, Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It provides an interesting survey of how humankind’s thinking about the afterlife has changed over the past ten thousand years. Having gone from being a true-believing evangelical to an agnostic, Ehrman doesn’t believe there will be any afterlife but, as always, his presentation is thoughtful, thorough, and respectful. In the Afterword, Ehrman writes:

Are we really to think that God is some kind of transcendent sadist intent on torturing people (or at least willing to allow them to be tortured) for all eternity, a divine being infinitely more vengeful than the worst monster who has ever existed? I just don’t believe it. Even if I instinctually fear it, I don’t believe it.

Neither do I.

[swampfrog]

Neither do I.

D&C 19.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was going to put this in the What Are You Reading Now? thread, but it seems better suited to this forum.

The reading for the Come Follow Me lesson three week ago or so included a passage from Mosiah (Mos. 3:39) that, like dozens of other similar scriptures, has always bothered me:

In view of the Plan of Eternal Progression (which in Church nomenclature seems to have lost favor relative to the lighter and cheerier Plan of Happiness), it seems illogical to suggest that anyone, no matter how sinful, would burn forever. I’ve written off such talk as scriptural hyperbole designed to motivate, not enlighten. My thinking was encapsulated nicely in a recent quote from Bart D. Ehrman:

But both LDS and non-LDS teachings seem to accept, even promote, the idea of everlasting torment. So I bought and just finished Ehrman’s new book, Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It provides an interesting survey of how humankind’s thinking about the afterlife has changed over the past ten thousand years. Having gone from being a true-believing evangelical to an agnostic, Ehrman doesn’t believe there will be any afterlife but, as always, his presentation is thoughtful, thorough, and respectful. In the Afterword, Ehrman writes:

Neither do I.

That sounds really good. I have enjoyed each Bart Ehrman book I have read.

I highly recommend Charlie Harrell's treatise on the evolution of LDS theology.

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctr.../dp/1589581032

His chapter on salvation was the most interesting to me. Yes, the BOM contained a very standard protestant view of salvation as evidenced by the Mosiah 3:39 quote. But then if you follow the progression of revelations/teachings/etc in chronological order all the way through D&C 138, you find that the doctrine steadily and consistently expanded the envelope of who is saved until only a tiny subset of folks aren't included. Indeed, that has been touted as one of the criticisms of virtues of the church, depending on your theological viewpoint. But we have a very narrow definition of hell.

I too, do not believe in endless torment. My favorite treatment of the subject is A Short Stay in Hell, the novella by BYU biology prof Steven Peck.

https://www.amazon.com/Short-Stay-He...s%2C173&sr=1-1

He brilliantly uses allegory to expose the absurdity of endless torment. This was supposed to be made into a movie, but I haven't seen anything yet. Not sure it would translate to the big screen.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I highly recommend Charlie Harrell's treatise on the evolution of LDS theology.

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctr.../dp/1589581032

His chapter on salvation was the most interesting to me. Yes, the BOM contained a very standard protestant view of salvation as evidenced by the Mosiah 3:39 quote. But then if you follow the progression of revelations/teachings/etc in chronological order all the way through D&C 138, you find that the doctrine steadily and consistently expanded the envelope of who is saved until only a tiny subset of folks aren't included. Indeed, that has been touted as one of the criticisms of virtues of the church, depending on your theological viewpoint. But we have a very narrow definition of hell.

Boom. I typed up a summary of this chapter here:

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post964727

[tooblue]

Boom. I typed up a summary of this chapter here:

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post964727

Hell isn’t something that happens to us, hell is a potential consequence of a choice we will have to make. Endless torment is knowing we had the capability, and opportunity and still did not choose celestial increase, but instead settled for lesser glory.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Swamp, thanks for the reference. I haven't read Section 19 in a long time. And JL, your summary is very good and is similar to Ehrman's analytical approach to how thinking on the hereafter has evolved. although he starts with the Epic of Gilgamesh and ends up sometime after Dante, with a lot of interesting side trips along the way. I like his writing style, scholarly without a whiff of pretentiousness. And thanks for book rec. It's now in the queue.

[Northwestcoug]

Boom. I typed up a summary of this chapter here:

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post964727

I had forgotten you posted that excellent chronology on the teachings of heaven/hell. Back when I thought about it, I fixated on the blatant contradictions between sections 76 and 138, and settled on believing the latter was more doctrinal. But there are a lot more issues to resolve in the other standard works.

I also didn’t know about the apostles having difficulties with 138. Very interesting.

[Northwestcoug]

Hell isn’t something that happens to us, hell is a potential consequence of a choice we will have to make. Endless torment is knowing we had the capability, and opportunity and still did not choose celestial increase, but instead settled for lesser glory.

If you and Bruce R. are right, only a relative few will be spared hell. I mean, 5 of the 6 known kingdoms/levels are damned for eternity. That’s a lot of endless torment for humanity.

[All-American]

If you and Bruce R. are right, only a relative few will be spared hell. I mean, 5 of the 6 known kingdoms/levels are damned for eternity. That’s a lot of endless torment for humanity.

And the remaining 1 will be stuck with a bunch of Mo’s. Let’s not pretend they are off the hook either.