So, if Hell Existed

[creekster]

I was going to put this in the What Are You Reading Now? thread, but it seems better suited to this forum.

The reading for the Come Follow Me lesson three week ago or so included a passage from Mosiah (Mos. 3:39) that, like dozens of other similar scriptures, has always bothered me:



In view of the Plan of Eternal Progression (which in Church nomenclature seems to have lost favor relative to the lighter and cheerier Plan of Happiness), it seems illogical to suggest that anyone, no matter how sinful, would burn forever. I’ve written off such talk as scriptural hyperbole designed to motivate, not enlighten. My thinking was encapsulated nicely in a recent quote from Bart D. Ehrman:



But both LDS and non-LDS teachings seem to accept, even promote, the idea of everlasting torment. So I bought and just finished Ehrman’s new book, Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. It provides an interesting survey of how humankind’s thinking about the afterlife has changed over the past ten thousand years. Having gone from being a true-believing evangelical to an agnostic, Ehrman doesn’t believe there will be any afterlife but, as always, his presentation is thoughtful, thorough, and respectful. In the Afterword, Ehrman writes:



Neither do I.

The bedrock gospel principle of eternal progression, applied to a supposedly infinite atonement, when considered with some of the promised blessings from temple covenants, convinces me that virtually no one will be left in 'hell' (whatever that is, exactly) in the long run. I believe that this conflict in ideas, like many other conflicts that seemingly exist in the scriptures, results from a struggle of imperfect people trying to commit ineffable truths revealed to their souls into profane words and languages. It is hard to do and they do it imperfectly almost all the time. But together we strive to live the basic ideals of faith and love and so hope to improve ourselves and the lives of those around us.

[MartyFunkhouser]

What would it be like for you? How would imagine your ultimate 'punishment' to be, in aeternum?

I'm being honest here, I think it would be a world wherein every single person was 13 and we never got any older, grew up, we just all stayed and felt 13.

Hell for me is there being no end.

[tooblue]

If you and Bruce R. are right, only a relative few will be spared hell. I mean, 5 of the 6 known kingdoms/levels are damned for eternity. That’s a lot of endless torment for humanity.

Per doctrine, a war "in heaven" was fought to preserve our agency. The stakes were high. The consequences for the third part that rebelled are severe. In that context, the only way our agency can be taken from us is if we surrender it.

I imagine there may be some (perhaps another third part) willing to surrender their agency. Because patterns by definition repeat themselves. But, I am not so sure of the notion that only a relative few will be spared hell (whatever that is, exactly as creekster states); rather, and stated differently, perhaps it is only a relative few of those who kept their first estate that will spare themselves celestial increase?

[Goatnapper'96]

The bedrock gospel principle of eternal progression, applied to a supposedly infinite atonement, when considered with some of the promised blessings from temple covenants, convinces me that virtually no one will be left in 'hell' (whatever that is, exactly) in the long run. I believe that this conflict in ideas, like many other conflicts that seemingly exist in the scriptures, results from a struggle of imperfect people trying to commit ineffable truths revealed to their souls into profane words and languages. It is hard to do and they do it imperfectly almost all the time. But together we strive to live the basic ideals of faith and love and so hope to improve ourselves and the lives of those around us.

I agree with this. I just don't know if I agree because it is faith inspiring and thus "true" or because I find it comforting and attractive to believe as well as allowing me to not really care when folks begin trying to emotionally blackmail us into missionary or work for the dead goals.

[Goatnapper'96]

Hell for me is there being no end.

Interesting. The whole point of the atonement is opportunity to change and thus that any decree is never final.

[Non Sequitur]

Per doctrine, a war "in heaven" was fought to preserve our agency. The stakes were high. The consequences for the third part that rebelled are severe. In that context, the only way our agency can be taken from us is if we surrender it.

I imagine there may be some (perhaps another third part) willing to surrender their agency. Because patterns by definition repeat themselves. But, I am not so sure of the notion that only a relative few will be spared hell (whatever that is, exactly as creekster states); rather, and stated differently, perhaps it is only a relative few of those who kept their first estate that will spare themselves celestial increase?

The concept of hell was always one of those strands that started the whole thing to unravel. My thinking always ran along these lines: If God exists, he is either benevolent or not. If his plan includes consigning people to hell, then he is not a benevolent god. If he's not a benevolent god, then why should I worship him? If I worship him, it's either because I admire his lack of benevolence or because I'm afraid of the negative consequences of not worshiping him. Since I can't pretend to admire something I don't actually admire, I'm left with the conclusion that if I worship God I'm either a sycophant or a coward.

[tooblue]

The concept of hell was always one of those strands that started the whole thing to unravel. My thinking always ran along these lines: If God exists, he is either benevolent or not. If his plan includes consigning people to hell, then he is not a benevolent god. If he's not a benevolent god, then why should I worship him? If I worship him, it's either because I admire his lack of benevolence or because I'm afraid of the negative consequences of not worshiping him. Since I can't pretend to admire something I don't actually admire, I'm left with the conclusion that if I worship God I'm either a sycophant or a coward.

I can accept your reasoning, but what if his benevolence is expressed in providing you ample opportunity to arrive at the conclusion to which you have arrived, because wasn't that the plan—the whole reason for fighting a "war?"

Otherwise, why fight the war—what was the point?

[MartyFunkhouser]

Interesting. The whole point of the atonement is opportunity to change and thus that any decree is never final.

I don't want an eternity and the absence of a something being final. I have no desire to check out now, but I do want an end at some point. I know a lot of people are comforted by the thought of an afterlife. I am not.

[tooblue]

I don't want an eternity and the absence of a something being final. I have no desire to check out now, but I do want an end at some point. I know a lot of people are comforted by the thought of an afterlife. I am not.

The problem is an ending is just another beginning. The universe will never stop expanding. You will never not have a place in it and your contribution, regardless its significance is indefinite.

[MartyFunkhouser]

The problem is an ending is just another beginning. The universe will never stop expanding. You will never not have a place in it and your contribution, regardless its significance is indefinite.

If my contribution has no sentience to it, I'm cool with that.

[Commando]

I don't want an eternity and the absence of a something being final. I have no desire to check out now, but I do want an end at some point. I know a lot of people are comforted by the thought of an afterlife. I am not.

You of all people should know that there are a lot of 'finals,' for better or for worse, and I think that carries on, even if I don't think there is one overarching final final.

[myboynoah]

The bedrock gospel principle of eternal progression, applied to a supposedly infinite atonement, when considered with some of the promised blessings from temple covenants, convinces me that virtually no one will be left in 'hell' (whatever that is, exactly) in the long run. I believe that this conflict in ideas, like many other conflicts that seemingly exist in the scriptures, results from a struggle of imperfect people trying to commit ineffable truths revealed to their souls into profane words and languages. It is hard to do and they do it imperfectly almost all the time. But together we strive to live the basic ideals of faith and love and so hope to improve ourselves and the lives of those around us.

I agree with this. I just don't know if I agree because it is faith inspiring and thus "true" or because I find it comforting and attractive to believe as well as allowing me to not really care when folks begin trying to emotionally blackmail us into missionary or work for the dead goals.

I agree because of the bolded. Nicely said, cr33k. I believe concepts of eternity are difficult to fully comprehend and it's almost impossible to put into words those parts that we may be blessed to comprehend.

I believe it was Brian to wrote at some point that he believes everyone makes it eventually. I agree. The details of how that happens are lost to me, but that makes sense to me.

[clackamascoug]

I agree because of the bolded. Nicely said, cr33k. I believe concepts of eternity are difficult to fully comprehend and it's almost impossible to put into words those parts that we may be blessed to comprehend.

I believe it was Brian to wrote at some point that he believes everyone makes it eventually. I agree. The details of how that happens are lost to me, but that makes sense to me.

If you think in terms of coming to Earth - to learn and grow as part of an eternal life path - then the first hand experiences are priceless. If you exist in multiple dimensions having exponential experiences, you'll be a more knowledgeable heavenly being than the poor sucker who only lived in one dimension.

[myboynoah]

If you think in terms of coming to Earth - to learn and grow as part of an eternal life path - then the first hand experiences are priceless. If you exist in multiple dimensions having exponential experiences, you'll be a more knowledgeable heavenly being than the poor sucker who only lived in one dimension.

Agreed!

[Jeff Lebowski]

If you think in terms of coming to Earth - to learn and grow as part of an eternal life path - then the first hand experiences are priceless. If you exist in multiple dimensions having exponential experiences, you'll be a more knowledgeable heavenly being than the poor sucker who only lived in one dimension.

Imagine if you had a portal gun that allowed you to transport between dimensions at will. Hell you could even visit other versions of yourself and exchange information. What an adventure.