Prayer doesn't work. Do Mormon Priesthood Blessings?

[Portland Ute]

Actually the study showed that those who knew someone was praying for them had statistically significantly worse outcomes than those for whom prayer wasn't a part of the equation. The team of doctors performing the surgeries was the same, in the same facility.

It would be fascinating to do a similar study in SLC and track outcomes for patients with and without Priesthood blessings.

Why would that be fascinating to you?

You seem to have already drawn your own conclusions.

[TripletDaddy]

Thats not really what I said, although I htink that many people tend to ask for things they shouldn't.

I believe the candy machine metaphor was ERCougar's, not yours. Either there is a candy machine component to prayer or there isn't. If there isn't, have we communicated that to the members?

[Portland Ute]

On the subject of faith healings, if a person could only choose between a blessing by his or her home teachers or a visit to the top medical practitioner in that particular field, I wonder which one people would choose? I know which one I would choose.

I'll see you in the clinic waiting room.

[creekster]

If the key to successful prayer is to know what to ask for (by knowing God's will beforehand), then what is the purpose of effectuating the prayer? Unless I am misunderstanding you, the person praying will already know the answer and know God's will prior to the prayer.

That would be the state for which we strive. It is a problem that few of us will ever have, I would guess. But if we do reach that state, we will truly be "praying always." As natural men we do not tend to want the things God wants. Prayer is the means by which we can align our will with His and therefore achieve that which he would have us achieve and accept the absence of those things we would otherwise want. This is the great blessing of prayer.

I think this is why effective prayer is similar to meditation. If used effectively prayer alters our state of mind.

[Portland Ute]

I believe the candy machine metaphor was ERCougar's, not yours. Either there is a candy machine component to prayer or there isn't. If there isn't, have we communicated that to the members?

Moroni 10:3-5 would indicate that there absolutely is a teaching in Mormon doctrine that if you ask for some things you can receive those things.

[creekster]

I believe the candy machine metaphor was ERCougar's, not yours. Either there is a candy machine component to prayer or there isn't. If there isn't, have we communicated that to the members?

Not mine. I don't like the analogy as it sets up a dichotomy that i think is false. OTOH, if you ask for the right things it IS like a candy machine. The disappointment I feel in your posts is one shared by most people (including myself) becasue we all tend to ask for the things we want and not the things God wants and we really don't want to leave our wants behind.

Now, you should also know that I am a sort of deist, in that I think God is far less interventionist than most people. I don't think God really cares where we left our car keys.

[SCcoug]

that wasn't the point I was making. I don't suggest that creekster's bible dictionary quote is absent from Church teaching. My question was whether the teaching was communicated effectively, as measured by the preponderance of belief in "ask for stuff/get stuff." While you may hear that BD quote several times a year in church, how often do you hear the Sunday School teacher clarify to everyone that asking for things through prayer isn't going to get you the things you are requesting.

I don't deny that it doesn't contradict other things taught in church and scripture. It isn't unique in that respect either as there are tons of contradictory and conflicting ideas that falls on us as individuals to piece together.

[creekster]

Moroni 10:3-5 would indicate that there absolutely is a teaching in Mormon doctrine that if you ask for some things you can receive those things.

Thats different; I pointed out that revelation and enlightenment is what we DO receive from effective prayer. That is, after all, usually exactly what God wants us to want.

[Levin]

Just wanted to say I appreciate the thoughts in this thread -- they've helped me today.

[The Rambam]

Why would that be fascinating to you?

You seem to have already drawn your own conclusions.

You assume too much. I have this problem with my wife too. I say something very clear and she sometimes, instead of just listening to my words and responding to them, she assumes I am saying things I am not. It is odd and tiresome. Wouldn't it be easier to just focus on the words I do say instead of guessing which things I believe that I'm not saying?

For the record: I believe that God exists. I believe that God is powerful. I believe in gifts of the Spirit, including healing. I don't believe everyone has every gift. I believe that blessings can be inspired. I believe that God rarely interferes with agency and the system of entropy he set up on Earth. I would be fascinated to know if Mormon priesthood blessings had any measurable effect on health outcomes. They might, or they might not--and then we could debate the reasons on here happily for many days.

[mUUser]

...it is my opinion that He very rarely interferes with the free will of his children or the natural order of matter.....

that, IMO, is the answer to many of the "why's" of religion. I believe God takes the eternal principal of "free will and choice" seriously. It's the only answer that makes any sense to me. Why do good things happen to bad people? why do bad things happen to good people? why are the innocent allowed to be castigated, beaten, or tortured? why wasn't prayer answered? etc....

We occasionally receive a "tender mercy" that impedes on the free will of others. Haven't figured that one out.

[Goatnapper'96]

And soft science (like the "study" above) attracts people who really, really want to be right... but have no way of proving it. I think the Ghostbusters conducted more rigorous science.

This thread deserves the "Like anyone can even know that, Napoleon."

I think soft science attracts people who like their ego to be stroked by being fawned over. It isn't that the argument is right, it is that it is loved by so many.

I am not claiming these to be true. I have a mere BS and it was in political science!

[The Rambam]

Moroni 10:3-5 would indicate that there absolutely is a teaching in Mormon doctrine that if you ask for some things you can receive those things.

Knowledge and comfort are the candy God dispenses via the Holy Ghost. I don't think he interferes with agency or entropy very often. To the extent that we teach God will grant you knowledge and give you comfort, I think we are on safe solid ground. When we say ask for stuff and God will interfere in other's agency and suspend entropy for you, I think we fall through thin ice.

The purpose of life is to hone our agency in all manner of tough circumstances; the purpose of life is not longevity.

[Goatnapper'96]

Moroni 10:3-5 would indicate that there absolutely is a teaching in Mormon doctrine that if you ask for some things you can receive those things.

There are some pretty serious qualifiers about real intent and whatnot.

That is not to say that I don't think the LDS culture/church/nasally speaking Relief Socity president we all have to listen to does not or will not take it out of context and only focus upon the "through the power of the Holy Ghost ye shall know the truth of all things."

[Goatnapper'96]

Knowledge and comfort are the candy God dispenses via the Holy Ghost. I don't think he interferes with agency or entropy very often. To the extent that we teach God will grant you knowledge and give you comfort, I think we are on safe solid ground. When we say ask for stuff and God will interfere in other's agency and suspend entropy for you, I think we fall through thin ice.

The purpose of life is to hone our agency in all manner of tough circumstances; the purpose of life is not longevity.

I propose that the bigger problem with God being involved, beyond sending comfort and individual knowledge, is the appearance of fickleness. Let it be because His thoughts and ways are not our ways, or be it because He is a capricious SOB who is a homophobe, it presents a really difficult challenge for mortals to reconcile God softening the hearts of the Lamanites while my enemies continue being gawdless sons of bitches. To me the thin ice comes in mortals seeking their own version of consistency from God. For the record I, and I think Hottie, just can't figure out why some womenfolk got small knockers!