Prayer doesn't work. Do Mormon Priesthood Blessings?

[Portland Ute]

I like your approach to it, but I think it sidesteps, in a major way, theodicy.

The-idiocy is what the CUF Foyer is all about!

[The Rambam]

I like your approach to it, but I think it sidesteps, in a major way, theodicy.

It does sidestep theodicy. I think God weeps at the consequences of our misuse of agency. It breaks his heart. But he won't intervene. I think all examples of God doing anything other then granting knowledge and wisdom and comfort is fiction.

So God can tell Elder Oaks not to grab the gun stuck in his chest because the young assailant would die. But God wouldn't stop the young punk from holding Oaks up in the first place.

http://www.lds.org/friend/1997/07/pe...lin+H.+Oaks%22)

[ERCougar]

Interesting thread. I think the subject of prayer is really fascinating and it'd be nice to be able to delve into it in more than a shallow way at church. I'd be really curious to hear what some of the more orthodox have to say about it.

At my most faithful moments nowadays, I still think asking for blessings in prayer is important--I didn't mean to make light of that. It's only through praying for something with the hope, and even expectation, that we'll receive it that we learn to really discern God's will. Can we actually bring to pass something through prayer that wouldn't have come about otherwise? I'm not really sure. I feel like I've had events that have come about as a result of prayer in my life, but I certainly could have been fooling myself, and really, it's not a testable premise. I'm not ready to write off any benefit to prayer to a placebo effect--that seems awfully cynical and arrogant (of human understanding, not anything personal), but more importantly destroys the value of prayer in our lives. I'm not sure we can really discern and come to know God's power or will in the world without really getting down and dirty in desiring (and praying for) outcomes. The intellectual exercise of wondering what God wants (or just trying to want what God wants) just doesn't carry the same power or spiritual effect for me. Prayer is about being really honest with the Lord about our true desires, not about just trying to have the right ones. Even Christ asked that the cup be taken away.

But all that being said, God's purposes are fulfilled, with or without us, on a macro level. Testing for macro results on something that is intended to have micro-level benefits is silly.

[Katy Lied]

throw pooh around like that

[Coach McGuirk]

No offense taken. It sounded as though you thought I was hearing some of these ideas for the first time. As you and many others indicated, it isn't overly shocking to live some life and then come to the conclusion that "ask and ye shall receive" isn't meant to be a perpetual blank check. We aren't always going to find our car keys, no matter how much we ask.

I've never failed to find my car keys.

[TripletDaddy]

I've never failed to find my car keys.

You must have read creekster's, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Prayers"

[taekwondave]

This was probably the wrong thread but it is just something I've noticed over time and for whatever reason it came out in this thread. Incidentally, why would writing that shelter me from anything? Fire away! I've got broad shoulders. I just find it interesting the level to which many people will go to rationalize behavior. I'm speaking to everyone, yes, myself included. Certainly I believe that open and honest discussions on the subject are helpful and can even serve to convince one of the logical and theological answer, but I just find it fascinating that so many people find it intellectually honest to question LDS teachings and principals while dishonestly sharing their testimonies on Sunday (again, that may not necessarily be the case in this thread but as I've read these types of threads ad nausem I've arrived at this conclusion)

Hey, I've struggled with my own testimony at times but I certainly wouldn't take the shortcut of agreeing on a chatboard with someone's argument in order to appear progressive and 'well-informed'. You, me, every one of us tries to save face now and again but I just think too many people here think it's great fun to play with the teachings of the gospel, many of which are fundamental to not only the LDS faith but Christianity in general, while their spouse and family assume that he or she is a bastian of sprituality. How is that being intellectually honest even if those are your true feelings and you keep those from those closest to you? Look, I'm in no position to call anyone to repentance, I simply shared my own perspective and that's all I meant by "just my opinion". End of rant.

I think you're making some really huge, and off-base, assumptions about the nature of this particular crowd and the relationships they have with both the church and their own families. My wife knows every one of my religious views. I wouldn't have married her otherwise. There are a few couples who post on here, I believe, and they are anything but "hardliners." This isn't a group pretending to be progressive in order to be cool, man. This is a progressive group, period. I have been to many LDS boards online and no other group even comes close. Most of us don't "struggle" with our testimonies. Most of us have simply recreated them. Some of us are currently struggling, yes, but I think overwhelmingly the people on this site, whether they are deep in the church, on its edges, or have left altogether, pretty much know where they stand on most things. This place offers a lot of us a chance to air out the thoughts and feelings we don't feel comfortable airing out at church and in less than very private company where we know what we believe will be poorly received. We value our relationships in those settings and find this to be a pretty good outlet when the urge gets too strong to speak our minds without causing us to alienate a lot of really good people we happen to love by letting them know we don't think the way they think (you may not realize it, but most people don't like being around people who don't agree with them). I just don't think your rant, although honest, was appropriate given your surroundings here. Folks here are some of the most honest I have met, albeit their views (my own especially) are not mainstream.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This was probably the wrong thread but it is just something I've noticed over time and for whatever reason it came out in this thread. Incidentally, why would writing that shelter me from anything? Fire away! I've got broad shoulders. I just find it interesting the level to which many people will go to rationalize behavior. I'm speaking to everyone, yes, myself included. Certainly I believe that open and honest discussions on the subject are helpful and can even serve to convince one of the logical and theological answer, but I just find it fascinating that so many people find it intellectually honest to question LDS teachings and principals while dishonestly sharing their testimonies on Sunday (again, that may not necessarily be the case in this thread but as I've read these types of threads ad nausem I've arrived at this conclusion)

Hey, I've struggled with my own testimony at times but I certainly wouldn't take the shortcut of agreeing on a chatboard with someone's argument in order to appear progressive and 'well-informed'. You, me, every one of us tries to save face now and again but I just think too many people here think it's great fun to play with the teachings of the gospel, many of which are fundamental to not only the LDS faith but Christianity in general, while their spouse and family assume that he or she is a bastian of sprituality. How is that being intellectually honest even if those are your true feelings and you keep those from those closest to you? Look, I'm in no position to call anyone to repentance, I simply shared my own perspective and that's all I meant by "just my opinion". End of rant.

Wow, you are making a lot of assumptions there.

[myboynoah]

Not as understood as woot. A good litmus test for his posts are to ask yourself if you agree. If the answer is yes, you understood it.

[Blueintheface]

Wow, you are making a lot of assumptions there.

I regret having said anything.

[Goatnapper'96]

I regret having said anything.

Never let 'em see weakness, my friend. Dipshits like WHYOHIO? will one day try to use it against you. Look em in the eye and tell em that you are gonna kick their dicks in the dirt!

[TripletDaddy]

Never let 'em see weakness, my friend. Dipshits like WHYOHIO? will one day try to use it against you. Look em in the eye and tell em that you are gonna kick their dicks in the dirt!

knock. not kick.

[woot]

Not as understood as woot. A good litmus test for his posts are to ask yourself if you agree. If the answer is yes, you understood it.

Not to legitimize this cheap shot with a response, but in both cases where someone misunderstood me, others in each thread recognized that the person had made assumptions about my arguments that weren't in evidence.

I think this board as a whole has become far more defensive, as evidenced by recently-linked foyer threads from 2009-2010 in which sensitive issues were discussed in depth without anyone getting offended. These days, nuance is very often lost as attacks are made in response to perceived motivations as often as to actual arguments.

[DrumNFeather]

Not to legitimize this cheap shot with a response, but in both cases where someone misunderstood me, others in each thread recognized that the person had made assumptions about my arguments that weren't in evidence.

I think this board as a whole has become far more defensive, as evidenced by recently-linked foyer threads from 2009-2010 in which sensitive issues were discussed in depth without anyone getting offended. These days, nuance is very often lost as attacks are made in response to perceived motivations as often as to actual arguments.

Seems to me that it has been a mix of both. Think about how many people (and it may only be a handful, but still) have left the church or become more disenfranchised since 09-10. So, while there may be more defensiveness from the faithfuls, I think there is an equal amount of sensitivity shown by those that have left or that want to leave and can't. This can create some nasty back and forths, especially when misunderstandings occur, both intentional and unintentional.