Why Mormons Leave

[UtahDan]

But as your point illustrates, perhaps this is an issue of semantics and we are debating over nothing.

I still think there is a real issue here at the bottom. As I said I don't think shocked is probably the right word. But I see the issue as what reason the brethren might have for using numbers that include millions of people that have no meaningful connection to the church. I think the idea that redoing the way you count in a way that slashed millions off the tally would bother people is a decent hypothesis for why that is done.

I saw someone in another discussion make the point that one reason to still count them is that all of them a precious and counting them is reflective of the fact that they have not been given up on. I don't think that idea explains the way the numbers get used and reported, but I thought it was a nice way to think about it.

[Flystripper]

A real-time running count on the LDS.org website? (yes, that would be a cool idea)

How about a little sign line under the church's Trademark on every chapel saying 500 million baptized (or whatever the real approximation is) and the chruch could include baptisims for the dead. Who cares how many members are alive. I want to know how many members total!

[Flystripper]

Yeah, but it won't be very many people, given the paring down of the current 7 billion people down to some low 6 figure number.

144,000

[Gidget]

The longer I'm on CUF the more I am convinced that being born into the Church messes you up. Seems healthier to join up later. No wonder Jesus didn't get baptized until he was older!

I could not agree more. Seriously.

[NorthwestUteFan]

TripletDaddy and Gidget,
you have to understand the background to understand how we were exposed to some of the wacky things. Those of us who grew up in the 70's and 80's were taught and surrounded by ward members who grew up during the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's who were immersed in much speculative doctrine. Following the mid 60's, the correlation committee helped put an end to the history of doctrinal speculation that existed in the church going back to the 1830's. I had a teacher say, "... a friend of my uncle spoke with(insert name of a Quorum of the Twelve member) and he said that the Brethren could the power of the Priesthood to turn back any Soviet missiles that come into our airspace... " At the time I thought it was super cool because I liked to think of the church leaders as Jedi Knights. This type of statement was rampant before we came to the point where the lessons are focused directly on specific doctrinal principles.

So, yes we were a bit messed up. But I do not think the same thing happens to kids growing up in the church today.

[ERCougar]

I could not agree more. Seriously.

I also couldn't agree more.

But doesn't that say something about the Church, its culture, and programs? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly am struggling with this. Isn't one of the great strengths of the church its youth programs, from primary through seminary and YM/YW?

I honestly feel like the church is best when not swallowed hook, line, and sinker, when taken with a grain of salt, etc, etc. But that is exactly what youth naturally do, and it's nearly always encouraged by primary and seminary teachers, and YM/YW advisors. After all--just get them on their missions and married in the temple and all will be well.

EDIT: I'm far less optimistic than NWUF that things are much different these days.

[jay santos]

I also couldn't agree more.

But doesn't that say something about the Church, its culture, and programs? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly am struggling with this. Isn't one of the great strengths of the church its youth programs, from primary through seminary and YM/YW?

I honestly feel like the church is best when not swallowed hook, line, and sinker, when taken with a grain of salt, etc, etc. But that is exactly what youth naturally do, and it's nearly always encouraged by primary and seminary teachers, and YM/YW advisors. After all--just get them on their missions and married in the temple and all will be well.

EDIT: I'm far less optimistic than NWUF that things are much different these days.

I think they're mocking the CUF apostates.

I see a big disconnect from the CUF apostates/MoSto crowd and from the ward experience I'm having. None of this stuff is discussed at church. I don't know any MoSto types. If there are any, they are all incognito. I don't know how common this CUF apostate/MoSto thing is.

[smokymountainrain]

I also couldn't agree more.

So you guys are agreeing with TD's comment that being born into the church messes you up - I tend to think he was being mostly tongue in cheek (despite that he most likely wouldn't admit it), but then you and Gidget agreed, definitely in a serious tone. In order to agree with a comment like that, don't have to have a definition in mind of the term "messed up"? What might that definition be?

I don't know, it's a strange thing to agree to and be serious about. Sure, I could agree that some people born into the church are messed up, but then I could say the same about people I know who weren't born into the church. One thing I am confident of, however, is that I know hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people born into the church who definitely are not messed up. But again, perhaps I'm not quite getting yours and/or Gidget's definition of what messed up might mean.

[ERCougar]

So you guys are agreeing with TD's comment that being born into the church messes you up - I tend to think he was being mostly tongue in cheek (despite that he most likely wouldn't admit it), but then you and Gidget agreed, definitely in a serious tone. In order to agree with a comment like that, don't have to have a definition in mind of the term "messed up"? What might that definition be?

I don't know, it's a strange thing to agree to and be serious about. Sure, I could agree that some people born into the church are messed up, but then I could say the same about people I know who weren't born into the church. One thing I am confident of, however, is that I know hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people born into the church who definitely are not messed up. But again, perhaps I'm not quite getting yours and/or Gidget's definition of what messed up might mean.

Obviously, you can't make an across-the-board statement like that, but I can agree with a part of it. "Couldn't agree more" is obviously overstating it.

I don't care to specifically define "messed up" because I'm not really attached to that term. I think I explained my concern about how the church trains up youth, and yeah, I think there are some negative consequences to that. Of course, I'd guess that we have pretty good retention rates up into the 20s, when compared to other religions, and maybe that's what the goal is.

[smokymountainrain]

Obviously, you can't make an across-the-board statement like that, but I can agree with a part of it. "Couldn't agree more" is obviously overstating it.

I don't care to specifically define "messed up" because I'm not really attached to that term. I think I explained my concern about how the church trains up youth, and yeah, I think there are some negative consequences to that. Of course, I'd guess that we have pretty good retention rates up into the 20s, when compared to other religions, and maybe that's what the goal is.

Fair enough. And I agree with the part in bold. I probably jumped on that with a bit too much gusto, but I just thought it was a weird statement for you and Gidget to so strongly agree with - but you explained that part as well.

[UtahDan]

I think they're mocking the CUF apostates.

I see a big disconnect from the CUF apostates/MoSto crowd and from the ward experience I'm having. None of this stuff is discussed at church. I don't know any MoSto types. If there are any, they are all incognito. I don't know how common this CUF apostate/MoSto thing is.

It is an interesting question, I don't think anyone knows. How many people on this board are incognito at church? I would guess that a lot of people still don't even know about those communities. However with all of the national attention Joanna Brooks is getting anyone who googles her is going to find them pretty quickly. My supposition is that the numbers are still relatively few but that they will increase by a couple orders of magnitude over the next 5 years as people become more aware of them. The first mosto conference was just last year, and the facebook groups can't be any older than 18 months if I recall correctly. This thing is in its infancy.

[UtahDan]

Obviously, you can't make an across-the-board statement like that, but I can agree with a part of it. "Couldn't agree more" is obviously overstating it.

I don't care to specifically define "messed up" because I'm not really attached to that term. I think I explained my concern about how the church trains up youth, and yeah, I think there are some negative consequences to that. Of course, I'd guess that we have pretty good retention rates up into the 20s, when compared to other religions, and maybe that's what the goal is.

I think you are putting your finger on one massive difference. Being raised in the church puts people on a path to build their entire lives around it in a way this is very difficult to undo before they are old enough to engage in much critical analysis of themselves let alone their traditions.

Converts choose the church and church life in a much more meaningful way. And since most of their families are not Mormon they have an entire range of consequence free choices that lifers do not. Not to make it too simplistic, but it is the difference in how you feel about yourself when you do something purely because you want to as opposed to when you are also expected to.

[ERCougar]

Fair enough. And I agree with the part in bold. I probably jumped on that with a bit too much gusto, but I just thought it was a weird statement for you and Gidget to so strongly agree with - but you explained that part as well.

Ha...actually rereading what I wrote, I didn't explain it very well. I think you get what I'm saying despite that. You're right--I definitely overstated it. I think because it's a bit of a hot button issue right now as I have a niece in seminary, a BIL who's trying to be a seminary teacher, and a son who seems to really grasp on to the the black and white model that makes me cringe.

[Viking]

I think we have the coolest apostates here. All we need is someone like Waterman and a mix of MoSto folks like Brooks and Dehlin and we will be awesome (great job!).

[RobinFinderson]

I will say this much... if you have a healthy, teenage, male libido, then the Mormon church has a very good chance of messing you up. The more you have bought it, hook line and sinker, the greater the potential to mess you up.

And Viking, that person you mentioned, he wouldn't touch this place with a 10' pole (and please don't try to get him here, because I know him personally, and he would recognize me, and quite frankly, CUF is a dirty little addiction of mine, and I would just as soon that he didn't know about it). Mormonism is far far far in his rear view mirror. We would love his insight, but he doesn't talk about Mormonism any more.