Why Mormons Leave

[lambdacoug]

This is 90%+ of what I grapple with, to the point of thinking it's absurd that membership is your ticket to the CK.

No, no, no. The ticket to the CK is a bunch of handshakes and stuff...

[The Rambam]

No, no, no. The ticket to the CK is a bunch of handshakes and stuff...

Exactly. It is all whistling in the wind. If we want to be with our Heavenly Parents, we will have to be like they are. They are defined by their love and compassion and empathy and humility. And by their willingness to allow their children to suffer horrible terrible things as part of a learning process with agency. (At least the kids think the rape and murder and war and so forth are horrible terrible things).

Salvation depends on a broken heart and contrite spirit qualifying you for the covering of the atonement--a very uncontroversial thing to say in the Mormon Church. Until you say you really mean it.

It is the heart--No, it is baptism by immersion by priesthood recognized by Church HQ in SLC!
It is the heart--No, it is secret handshakes, arm positions, and names!
It is the heart--No, it is being sealed into the new and everlasting covenant!
It is the heart--No, it is the second anointing!
It is the heart--No, it is the record referred to in DC 128 which shall bind heaven!
It is the heart--No, it is . . . . .

Think of it. The Creator of the universe, the all knowing God, is choosing who gets to be with him forever, who gets all the power and authority he has to go and create their own worlds without end, to create their own children, to be like He/She is--this Wisdom has devised a school to determine who is ready to take upon themselves His/Her own mantle---

And what is the grading criteria? Could it be the true and deep nature of the individual, the core self being filled with love and compassion?

No. Becoming God depends on whether or not you were dunked by the right guy in a tub of water, whether you know some handshakes and arm positions and some secret names, whether you were married in a unique hat in a masonic handshake with the right words said. This is how God chooses his equals.

Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Solon--all not qualified. The stake president I know who over-bills every one of his clients--qualified.

Now the quick rejoinder is that the beauty of Mormonism is that the heathens can accept these ordinances done by my stake president and that my stake president has to have the broken heart in addition to the ordinances. But this is just another way of saying that the ordinances don't matter and the broken heart is all that matters.

If it comforts you to view God wearing reading glasses and looking at his clipboard to see if the right ordinance boxes are checked as his minions are guarding the pearly gates, go for it. My Parents love me and know my heart and when I see them, I hope to be like them.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[TexTechCoug]

Exactly. It is all whistling in the wind. If we want to be with our Heavenly Parents, we will have to be like they are. They are defined by their love and compassion and empathy and humility. And by their willingness to allow their children to suffer horrible terrible things as part of a learning process with agency. (At least the kids think the rape and murder and war and so forth are horrible terrible things).

Salvation depends on a broken heart and contrite spirit qualifying you for the covering of the atonement--a very uncontroversial thing to say in the Mormon Church. Until you say you really mean it.

It is the heart--No, it is baptism by immersion by priesthood recognized by Church HQ in SLC!
It is the heart--No, it is secret handshakes, arm positions, and names!
It is the heart--No, it is being sealed into the new and everlasting covenant!
It is the heart--No, it is the second anointing!
It is the heart--No, it is the record referred to in DC 128 which shall bind heaven!
It is the heart--No, it is . . . . .

Think of it. The Creator of the universe, the all knowing God, is choosing who gets to be with him forever, who gets all the power and authority he has to go and create their own worlds without end, to create their own children, to be like He/She is--this Wisdom has devised a school to determine who is ready to take upon themselves His/Her own mantle---

And what is the grading criteria? Could it be the true and deep nature of the individual, the core self being filled with love and compassion?

No. Becoming God depends on whether or not you were dunked by the right guy in a tub of water, whether you know some handshakes and arm positions and some secret names, whether you were married in a unique hat in a masonic handshake with the right words said. This is how God chooses his equals.

Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Solon--all not qualified. The stake president I know who over-bills every one of his clients--qualified.

Now the quick rejoinder is that the beauty of Mormonism is that the heathens can accept these ordinances done by my stake president and that my stake president has to have the broken heart in addition to the ordinances. But this is just another way of saying that the ordinances don't matter and the broken heart is all that matters.

If it comforts you to view God wearing reading glasses and looking at his clipboard to see if the right ordinance boxes are checked as his minions are guarding the pearly gates, go for it. My Parents love me and know my heart and when I see them, I hope to be like them.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Since everybody is extended all of the handshakes and dunkings it seems reasonable that it is your heart is what matters. You have created a straw man that is easy to topple, but isn't a good reflection of Mormon doctrine. Mormonism, among world religions, is rather inclusive in that part of the mission of the Gospel is to give everybody a fair shot at salvation. I think the handshakes and dunking are meant to be learning opportunities for the living, but they hardly constitute a meaningful barrier to the next life since they are supposed to be universally available.

[jay santos]

Salvation depends on a broken heart and contrite spirit qualifying you for the covering of the atonement--a very uncontroversial thing to say in the Mormon Church. Until you say you really mean it.

It is the heart--No, it is baptism by immersion by priesthood recognized by Church HQ in SLC!
It is the heart--No, it is secret handshakes, arm positions, and names!
It is the heart--No, it is being sealed into the new and everlasting covenant!
It is the heart--No, it is the second anointing!
It is the heart--No, it is the record referred to in DC 128 which shall bind heaven!
It is the heart--No, it is . . . . .

Son: "Dad, thanks for everything you've done for me. I love you so much. My heart is one with you."
Father: "I have some work I need you to do around the house."
Son: "Sorry, Dad. I don't have time for it. But my heart is in it."
Father: "This weekend could you spend a few hours with me, maybe go to lunch and go play golf or go with me to a game."
Son: "No Dad, I don't think this should be expected of me. But i reiterate I'm so grateful to you and my heart is one with you."
Father: "Could you give a middle name to one of your sons a family name that's been passed down for generations. It's a symbolic thing and important for me."
Son: "Sorry dad, I don't believe in those symbolic things. My heart is all that I think is important."

[Indy Coug]

Exactly. It is all whistling in the wind. If we want to be with our Heavenly Parents, we will have to be like they are. They are defined by their love and compassion and empathy and humility. And by their willingness to allow their children to suffer horrible terrible things as part of a learning process with agency. (At least the kids think the rape and murder and war and so forth are horrible terrible things).

Salvation depends on a broken heart and contrite spirit qualifying you for the covering of the atonement--a very uncontroversial thing to say in the Mormon Church. Until you say you really mean it.

It is the heart--No, it is baptism by immersion by priesthood recognized by Church HQ in SLC!
It is the heart--No, it is secret handshakes, arm positions, and names!
It is the heart--No, it is being sealed into the new and everlasting covenant!
It is the heart--No, it is the second anointing!
It is the heart--No, it is the record referred to in DC 128 which shall bind heaven!
It is the heart--No, it is . . . . .

Think of it. The Creator of the universe, the all knowing God, is choosing who gets to be with him forever, who gets all the power and authority he has to go and create their own worlds without end, to create their own children, to be like He/She is--this Wisdom has devised a school to determine who is ready to take upon themselves His/Her own mantle---

And what is the grading criteria? Could it be the true and deep nature of the individual, the core self being filled with love and compassion?

No. Becoming God depends on whether or not you were dunked by the right guy in a tub of water, whether you know some handshakes and arm positions and some secret names, whether you were married in a unique hat in a masonic handshake with the right words said. This is how God chooses his equals.

Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Solon--all not qualified. The stake president I know who over-bills every one of his clients--qualified.

Now the quick rejoinder is that the beauty of Mormonism is that the heathens can accept these ordinances done by my stake president and that my stake president has to have the broken heart in addition to the ordinances. But this is just another way of saying that the ordinances don't matter and the broken heart is all that matters.

If it comforts you to view God wearing reading glasses and looking at his clipboard to see if the right ordinance boxes are checked as his minions are guarding the pearly gates, go for it. My Parents love me and know my heart and when I see them, I hope to be like them.

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

[UtahDan]

Surprised this has not been posted yet. There is piece in the Ensign entitled "When He Stopped Believing" which I view as a tentative, but very positive, step in the right direction.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/wh...pped-believing

In response to my many tearful prayers, one encompassing answer continued to impress itself strongly on my mind: “Just love him!” That impression has led me to a wealth of understanding and has enabled me to find healing and hope, as expressions of the Savior’s love have become more evident in my life than ever before. While my husband is unchanged in his lack of belief, this experience—and following the prompting I received—has facilitated tremendous growth within me, and I know I will never be the same wife or mother again. It has been through this process that I have learned the following truths.

...

The Decision to Love Blesses Each of Us
Already the answer I have received to love, trust, and serve my husband has strengthened our marriage in profound ways. While my husband still lacks sure knowledge that God lives, from my perspective our marriage has become closer to heaven. As I seek to love my husband more each day, the Savior’s love seems to permeate my heart, causing it to expand with a deeper love than I have ever known. From my point of view, through our daily expressions of love for each other, the overall feeling of love and the occurrence of spiritual experiences have been strengthened both in our relationship and in our home.

[byu71]

People leave because they either don't believe or the parts they don't believe in outweight the parts they do.

I may have said this before, but I still am not sure of the need by the leavers to over and over again justify the departure. Was the original indoctrination so stong you have to keep reaffirming to yourselves why you left, OR

Were you so dissapointed that the things you believed in were untrue in your opinion you need "payback". Seems like a nasty divorce.

[Non Sequitur]

People leave because they either don't believe or the parts they don't believe in outweight the parts they do.

I may have said this before, but I still am not sure of the need by the leavers to over and over again justify the departure. Was the original indoctrination so stong you have to keep reaffirming to yourselves why you left, OR

Were you so dissapointed that the things you believed in were untrue in your opinion you need "payback". Seems like a nasty divorce.

That's an unfair characterization. The thread is titled "Why Mormons Leave". No one is going out of their way justify their departure. People are just answering a question.

It's not my experience that people who have left spend a lot of time trying to justify their departure. Maybe in the first couple of months, but after that it only comes up when someone asks them about it.

[byu71]

That's an unfair characterization. The thread is titled "Why Mormons Leave". No one is going out of their way justify their departure. People are just answering a question.

It's not my experience that people who have left spend a lot of time trying to justify their departure. Maybe in the first couple of months, but after that it only comes up when someone asks them about it.

Since when has any thread on this board been confined to the narrow scope of the thread title.

It is also not my experience people who have left spend a lot of time............

I am talking about the few that do seem to have a hard on over it.

[Non Sequitur]

I am talking about the few that do seem to have a hard on over it.

We're not all members of the MoSto crowd. For most of us the decision is similar to choosing Harmon's over Smith's. We don't even need a podcast to tell us where to go for better cheese and produce.

[lambdacoug]

People leave because they either don't believe or the parts they don't believe in outweight the parts they do.

I may have said this before, but I still am not sure of the need by the leavers to over and over again justify the departure. Was the original indoctrination so stong you have to keep reaffirming to yourselves why you left, OR

Were you so dissapointed that the things you believed in were untrue in your opinion you need "payback". Seems like a nasty divorce.

I don't think the 'OR' part is right, I think it'd be more apt to say 'AND'. There is a whole lot more involved than just those two things you mentioned, and just mentioning those two shows part of the problem. There are more reasons to why exmos act they way we do than the options that are put into the minds of our former friends and acquaintances. Of course we bristle when faced with such false dichotomies.

[lambdacoug]

We're not all members of the MoSto crowd. For most of us the decision is similar to choosing Harmon's over Smith's. We don't even need a podcast to tell us where to go for better cheese and produce.

I'm not sure I'd agree with your characterization that "most" exmos are not in the MoSto crowd, especially at the beginning. I think we settle down eventually, but I would say most ex-mormons do not view their decision to leave as passively as the choice of grocery stores.

[byu71]

We're not all members of the MoSto crowd. For most of us the decision is similar to choosing Harmon's over Smith's. We don't even need a podcast to tell us where to go for better cheese and produce.

You are not, I would agree. It is pretty easy to pick out those who have the hard on's.

[byu71]

I don't think the 'OR' part is right, I think it'd be more apt to say 'AND'. There is a whole lot more involved than just those two things you mentioned, and just mentioning those two shows part of the problem. There are more reasons to why exmos act they way we do than the options that are put into the minds of our former friends and acquaintances. Of course we bristle when faced with such false dichotomies.

I think I made it clear, but I will reiterate, I am talking about a select few. Of my many friends who have chosen to no longer practice, only 1 is obsessed with letting those of us who still consider ourselves in, know why we are up in the night.

[Non Sequitur]

I'm not sure I'd agree with your characterization that "most" exmos are not in the MoSto crowd, especially at the beginning. I think we settle down eventually, but I would say most ex-mormons do not view their decision to leave as passively as the choice of grocery stores.

I don't know. Leaving Smiths was kind of traumatic. I even had a card.