Why Mormons Leave

[NorthwestUteFan]

I must have missed out on all of these prophecies and promises of world domination.

The longer I'm on CUF the more I am convinced that being born into the Church messes you up. Seems healthier to join up later. No wonder Jesus didn't get baptized until he was older!

I don't remember it so much after the mid 80s, or maybe into the early 90s. Looking back, much of the speculation I recall was likely the 'Gospel According to Brother Whatsisname' in seminary.

On a similar note I have to wonder how the new converts (who were converted to Faith, Repentence, Baptism, and Book of Mormon is true) felt after leaving their homes in Europe only to find a church in Nauvoo or SLC that had evolved dramatically from the simple gospel they were taught. I imagine my great-great-great-grandmother was shocked after being disowned by her father, leaving her native Denmark, burying her husband at sea along the way, only to be told upon arrival in SLC that she had to get married to Bro. Jensen (who already had 4 wives). Luckily she told him to pound sand, and instead she married a single man and remained monogamous.

[Pheidippides]

It is?

I wouldn't call it universal but I would call it the most common viewpoint I have seen.

[Northwestcoug]

So if it wasn't in GC, where was it? And what were these seeds? Surely you aren't referring to the membership numbers being read at conf, are you?

Are we watching the same conferences?

OK, time frame late 80's-mid 90's. HUGE publicity about reaching 10 million members, then when more than half of members resided outside of the US than in. HUGE milestone of 100 temples. References about how flat the growth rate in the church was, until it skyrocketed.

It wasn't just the membership numbers being read at conference. Subsequent talks referenced the importance of these milestones. I'll give you that the importance of these weren't necessarily cannonized as evidence of the truthfulness of the gospel. But I really didn't think I was out of the norm believing that it was.

[scottie]

I heard it growing up, on my mission, and even post-mission. I don't hear it as much now but the rhetoric was definitely there.

That was my experience as well.

[byu71]

I must have missed out on all of these prophecies and promises of world domination.

The longer I'm on CUF the more I am convinced that being born into the Church messes you up. Seems healthier to join up later. No wonder Jesus didn't get baptized until he was older!

You should have been around during the 50's, 60's and 70's. I think what kind messed me up was thinking upon hearing some of these things, "bull crap". Then I felt guilty for feeling that way. Then I became comfortable knowing I wasn't that excited about hanging out with the people who were sure they were going to the Celestial Kingdom, my parents and aunts and uncles excluded. I really thought they were the greatest, although some of them drank coke and I couldn't figure out how they could be so good and yet drink coke.

[TripletDaddy]

I wouldn't call it universal but I would call it the most common viewpoint I have seen.

Really? is there some conflation with "being a member of the Church" and "having the opportunity to hear the Gospel?"

I don't think I have ever heard taught that by the end of the Millennium, everyone will have joined the Church. Of course, that doesn't mean that this has not been widely taught.

[jay santos]

Really? is there some conflation with "being a member of the Church" and "having the opportunity to hear the Gospel?"

How big would the church need to be in order for everyone on the earth to have an opportunity to hear the gospel in this lifetime? That's kind of where I'm going with the logic.

[Moliere]

So if it wasn't in GC, where was it? And what were these seeds? Surely you aren't referring to the membership numbers being read at conf, are you?

Just a couple examples:

- It was common theme in my seminary classes, especially the church history/D&C year.
- As a missionary we repeated, by memory, JS's famous quote about the work going forward and not being stopped by the unhallowed hand.
- We even had Pres. Monson visit our mission and promise the saints that if they had two families in their homes to hear the discussions then the church membership would double in France. Every visiting authority seemed to always remark on the growth of the church in our mission and used it as a testimony builder.
- I've watched that video on the growth of the temples, stakes, wards many times in EQ and GD.
- And yes, disclosing membership numbers in GC also play a role. Growing up in a very orthodox home it seemed that every time the membership statistics were given we were told that it was proof of the veracity of the church. Essentially people were figuring out that we had the truth, which was the cause for the exponential growth.

[byu71]

Really? is there some conflation with "being a member of the Church" and "having the opportunity to hear the Gospel?"

I don't think I have ever heard taught that by the end of the Millennium, everyone will have joined the Church. Of course, that doesn't mean that this has not been widely taught.

Actually I have heard quite the opposite. Now I can't say exactly where or the context I heard it, so it could be as valid as the consitution being saved by the Elders.

That being said, it was that when Christ reigns there will be a government and the elected officials will not all be mormon. The gospel will be taught and some will accept and some reject. I couldn't understand with Christ here on the earth and saying "the mormon church is my church" why someone would stay a Catholic, but that is what I was told.

[Pheidippides]

Really? is there some conflation with "being a member of the Church" and "having the opportunity to hear the Gospel?"

I don't think I have ever heard taught that by the end of the Millennium, everyone will have joined the Church. Of course, that doesn't mean that this has not been widely taught.

DDD, for a smart man sometimes you can be quite thick. Of all people, you should know that people believe what they want to regardless of what is actually written down. And in a culture that is 95 percent Mormon (and the five percent are weirdos) with an us against the world mentality, of course that is going to be a common belief. Give that belief to a few bishops and seminary teachers, stir in a dash of functional illiteracy, and voila! Instant myth.

If you really want to know things like this, find an untouched backwater Utah ward and sit quietly for a few weeks. EQ is pretty good.

Or you can try to come to a ward out of Utah but full of Utah fundamentalist transplants and watch the struggles. Or do what I do an just go for a run every Sunday.

To be fair, I haven't heard that specific viewpoint in some time.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Just a couple examples:

- It was common theme in my seminary classes, especially the church history/D&C year.
- As a missionary we repeated, by memory, JS's famous quote about the work going forward and not being stopped by the unhallowed hand.
- We even had Pres. Monson visit our mission and promise the saints that if they had two families in their homes to hear the discussions then the church membership would double in France. Every visiting authority seemed to always remark on the growth of the church in our mission and used it as a testimony builder.
- I've watched that video on the growth of the temples, stakes, wards many times in EQ and GD.
- And yes, disclosing membership numbers in GC also play a role. Growing up in a very orthodox home it seemed that every time the membership statistics were given we were told that it was proof of the veracity of the church. Essentially people were figuring out that we had the truth, which was the cause for the exponential growth.

Interesting. My experience and perceptions are clearly much different from yours, particularly on the last point. And rejoicing over growth and making goals for growth are hardly the same as teaching that world dominance is foreordained.

I certainly remember all of the high-fiving after that growth projection was published. But it seemed like BS to me right from the start. It was a long-term projection based on a short-term trend. It also smacked of the typical academic gimmick of making a bold, controversial prediction with the intent of creating a lot of buzz and media attention knowing that predictions cannot be disproved in the short term. I suppose that colored my perception of this alleged growth=truth phenomenon.

[jay santos]

Just a couple examples:

- It was common theme in my seminary classes, especially the church history/D&C year.
- As a missionary we repeated, by memory, JS's famous quote about the work going forward and not being stopped by the unhallowed hand.
- We even had Pres. Monson visit our mission and promise the saints that if they had two families in their homes to hear the discussions then the church membership would double in France. Every visiting authority seemed to always remark on the growth of the church in our mission and used it as a testimony builder.
- I've watched that video on the growth of the temples, stakes, wards many times in EQ and GD.
- And yes, disclosing membership numbers in GC also play a role. Growing up in a very orthodox home it seemed that every time the membership statistics were given we were told that it was proof of the veracity of the church. Essentially people were figuring out that we had the truth, which was the cause for the exponential growth.

I can't even explain exactly how I came to this belief system. I just know it was integral to the logic of what I understood the church to be and why it was restored and everything. This business about how 99% of the Earth would live and die without ever knowing about the church is explained away with the whole "they'll hear it in the Spirit World", but I always believed that was a temporary stop-gap until the church grew large enough to fulfill this objective properly.

[UtahDan]

Me too. I'm surprised that this isn't a more widely held memory here. Maybe the rhetoric wasn't trumpeted over the GC pulpit, but the seeds were certainly planted there.

The Church has become one large family scattered across the earth. There are now more than 13 million of us in 176 nations and territories. A marvelous and wonderful thing is coming to pass. The Lord is fulfilling His promise that His gospel shall be as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would roll forth and fill the whole earth, as Daniel saw in vision (see Daniel 2:31–45; D&C 65:2). A great miracle is taking place right before our eyes. GBH April GC 2007

Never forget that this Church began with the humble prayer of the boy Joseph Smith in the grove of his father’s farm. From that remarkable experience, which we call the First Vision, has grown this work until today it is established in 160 nations, with a membership of over 12 million. It is the very personification of Daniel’s vision of a stone cut out of the mountain without hands rolling forth to fill the whole earth (see Daniel 2:44–45). GBH April GC 2007

And this is only the beginning. We have scarcely scratched the surface. We are engaged in a work for the souls of men and women everywhere. Our work knows no boundaries. Under the providence of the Lord it will continue. Those nations now closed to us will someday be open. That is my faith. That is my belief. That is my testimony.

The little stone which was cut out of the mountain without hands is rolling forth to fill the earth (see Dan. 2:31–45; D&C 65:2). GBH October GC 2003

Surely and steadily The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints moves across the earth. In Daniel’s language it is “the stone … cut out of the mountain without hands.” 1 Isaiah described what he foresaw as “a marvellous work and a wonder.” 2 It is a wonder! The Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with miracles, revelations, manifestations of every kind. Many of those have come in our lifetime.

I was 17 years old before there was any stake of Zion anywhere outside North America. There are now well over 1,000 stakes on those distant continents and isles of the sea. We now have 125 temples operating or announced, more than half of which (64) are outside the United States. Again I was nearly 16 before there was even one temple beyond the states and provinces of the USA and Canada. JRH October GC 2001

While it is true that extraordinary strides are being made throughout the Church, the enormity of the task before us is overwhelming. Simply stated, we have a ministry to all of our Heavenly Father’s children on both sides of the veil. In that context, we have barely scratched the surface of our calling. True discipleship, therefore, precludes any complacency. The Lord expects us to continue moving the Church forward and even to accelerate our pace toward the literal fulfillment of Daniel’s prophetic vision of “a stone … cut out without hands … that … became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (Dan. 2:34–35). MRB April GC 2000

The stone was small in the beginning. It was hardly noticeable. But it has grown steadily and is rolling forth to fill the earth.

My brethren and sisters, do you realize what we have? Do you recognize our place in the great drama of human history? This is the focal point of all that has gone before. This is the season of restitution. These are the days of restoration. This is the time when men from over the earth come to the mountain of the Lord’s house to seek and learn of His ways and to walk in His paths. This is the summation of all of the centuries of time since the birth of Christ to this present and wonderful day. GBH October GC 1999

The little stone which was cut out of the mountain without hands is rolling forth to fill the earth (see D&C 65:2). What a wonderful thing it is to be part of this growing kingdom of our Lord. There are no political boundaries separating the hearts of the children of God regardless of where they may live. We are all of one great family. GBH October GC 1995

During much of my life, a few journalists and dissidents have predicted the imminent downfall of this church. They have often pointed to the alleged disaffection of the youth of the Church. The lives and the dedication of our almost 50,000 young missionaries are testament enough of the faithfulness of many of our youth. In addition, during my lifetime, the Church has grown from 525,000 to about 8,500,000. I believe and testify that this is because of the restoration of the fulness of the keys and authority of the gospel of Christ to Joseph Smith. JEF April GC 1994

In a recent article, a non-Latter-day Saint scholar gave a fresh and most interesting review of this Church and its unpredicted growth since its restoration 160 years ago. He described its growth as a “miracle” and an “incredibly rare event.” (Rodney Stark, “The Rise of a New World Faith,” Review of Religious Research, vol. 26, no. 1, Sept. 1984, p. 18.)
...
The Lord instructed his young prophet Joseph in October of 1831:

“The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.” (D&C 65:2.)

I testify we are witnessing the fulfillment of this promise, and that this work, given by Almighty God to His Son to proclaim, to teach, and finally to judge, will be done with eternal love, in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, amen. DBH April GC 1990

It is estimated that it took 117 years, from 1830 to 1947, to attain one million members. Then it took sixteen years, from 1947 to 1963, to reach the second million members, and then nine years, 1963 to 1972, to attain the third million. It will probably take about four or five years to move up to the four million mark, and then we can guess what the future holds.

What does this mean to us? It means that if the members of the Church do real proselyting in their home wards that the number of converts could grow to astronomical figures and even hasten the time when the Lord will be returning to the earth in His second advent. SPW October GC 1976

That is a pretty small sample. You guys need to start paying attention!

[UtahDan]

Interesting. My experience and perceptions are clearly much different from yours, particularly on the last point. And rejoicing over growth and making goals for growth are hardly the same as teaching that world dominance is foreordained.

Let's not get off track here. This started as a discussion about whether people expect there to be continued growth as part of the over all plan and would be surprised and disappointed to see numbers in decline, not about whether world dominance is foreordained. That begins to straw man the argument.

I certainly remember all of the high-fiving after that growth projection was published. But it seemed like BS to me right from the start. It was a long-term projection based on a short-term trend. It also smacked of the typical academic gimmick of making a bold, controversial prediction with the intent of creating a lot of buzz and media attention knowing that predictions cannot be disproved in the short term. I suppose that colored my perception of this alleged growth=truth phenomenon.

When will you lean that other people aren't as smart as you are?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Let's not get off track here. This started as a discussion about whether people expect there to be continued growth as part of the over all plan and would be surprised and disappointed to see numbers in decline, not about whether world dominance is foreordained. That begins to straw man the argument.

So says the man with hands full of straw...

Actually, this started with NWUF claiming that most members would be shocked to learn that not all members are active. Then it morphed into a discussion of whether or not it is widely believed that growth = proof of veracity. DDD posted this:

If people are using any growth stats as evidence of divinity, they are grasping at straws and are missing the point. To me, the cultural "cover the Earth" stuff does not mean that every person will be a baptized member of the Church. It simply means that the Gospel will be available all over the Earth. I think the Church is getting there in leaps and bounds (but still has work to do, of course).

The veracity of the Church cannot hinge on membership numbers. At one point not too long ago, there were only 6 members.

That squares with my perception and I stated my agreement.

I think most, if not all, of the quotes you provided are consistent with this interpretation. More specifically, I see very few leaders connecting the phrase "fill the earth" with "most of the people on earth will eventually accept the gospel".

But as your point illustrates, perhaps this is an issue of semantics and we are debating over nothing.

When will you lean that other people aren't as smart as you are?

Oh believe me. I am well aware of that!