For the Strength of Youth 2012

[Moliere]

If you had the Sprit, you would already know the answer to that question.

His problem is that he's not properly groomed so he can't have the spirit. This is turning into a chicken/egg scenario.

My favorite part of Indy's rhetoric is that a YW in 1980 with multiple piercings is more prone to have the spirit than a YW in 2012 with multiple piercings.

What about cultures where multiple piercings are not considered extreme?

[Indy Coug]

His problem is that he's not properly groomed so he can't have the spirit. This is turning into a chicken/egg scenario.

My favorite part of Indy's rhetoric is that a YW in 1980 with multiple piercings is more prone to have the spirit than a YW in 2012 with multiple piercings.

What about cultures where multiple piercings are not considered extreme?

...

I believe that all things being equal, if someone deliberately chooses not to follow the standards, there is a greater likelihood (however small or great that might be) that they are deliberately choosing not to be obedient in other things. So the issue isn't the number of earrings, it's the underlying motivations and attitudes that led to the number.

[Pheidippides]

His problem is that he's not properly groomed so he can't have the spirit. This is turning into a chicken/egg scenario.

My favorite part of Indy's rhetoric is that a YW in 1980 with multiple piercings is more prone to have the spirit than a YW in 2012 with multiple piercings.

What about cultures where multiple piercings are not considered extreme?

My extra piercings from 1982 never fully healed. That explains it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My favorite part of Indy's rhetoric is that a YW in 1980 with multiple piercings is more prone to have the spirit than a YW in 2012 with multiple piercings.

Or a YW in 1966 who didn't wear a dress to the grocery store. Or who engaged in "excessive body jerking" while dancing.

[Indy Coug]

Yes. Incredibly pejorative. I can see the hatred and loathing drip right off of the vile insinuation that my religion is not your religion. I think it might have been my gratuitous use of the word "religion". Or maybe "your". I can't possibly understand how you didn't rush into your car to head down to Texas to kick my ass. Clearly any reasonable person would have seen this.

I apologize. After re-reading it, I now see it for the playful banter it really is.

[Moliere]

...

Right, so they make up rules to see if we will obey and if we obey we are closer to the spirit. Weird.

I also found it interesting on my mission that the elders that didn't follow the rules with exactness were usually the ones that baptized more people and had generally more success. Weird.

[Indy Coug]

Right, so they make up rules to see if we will obey and if we obey we are closer to the spirit. Weird.

I also found it interesting on my mission that the elders that didn't follow the rules with exactness were usually the ones that baptized more people and had generally more success. Weird.

So the primary metric of missionary success is the number of baptisms?

[TripletDaddy]

Or a YW in 1966 who didn't wear a dress to the grocery store. Or who engaged in "excessive body jerking" while dancing.

To be fair, there has been some progress. For example, an interracial couple today is more likely to have the Spirit than an interracial couple in the 1970s.

[Moliere]

So the primary metric of missionary success is the number of baptisms?

My stake this year asked for one thing from each ward in regards to missionary work and that was to set a goal for number of baptisms. So yes, that is the primary metric of success according to my current stake.

[Moliere]

Or a YW in 1966 who didn't wear a dress to the grocery store. Or who engaged in "excessive body jerking" while dancing.

To be fair, there has been some progress. For example, an interracial couple today is more likely to have the Spirit than an interracial couple in the 1970s.

Shut up! The standards don't change!

[DrumNFeather]

This all belongs in the minutia thread...

[Non Sequitur]

So the primary metric of missionary success is the number of baptisms?

I have a friend who is a successful car salesman. He doesn't sell a lot of cars, but he has touched a number of lives.

[Indy Coug]

Right, so they make up rules to see if we will obey and if we obey we are closer to the spirit. Weird.

I also found it interesting on my mission that the elders that didn't follow the rules with exactness were usually the ones that baptized more people and had generally more success. Weird.

I found little correlation in my mission between rule-following and baptism numbers, but I did see more correlation with how their lives turned out after their mission was over.

[Moliere]

I found little correlation in my mission between rule-following and baptism numbers, but I did see more correlation with how their lives turned out after their mission was over.

This all makes me wonder if the brethren would ever counsel us to be BYU fans. Just think of how quickly LA Ute would lose the spirit for not following that counsel (and yes, I am make a comparison between the piercing counsel and pretend counsel to be a BYU fan because both are equally ridiculous).

[Color Me Badd Fan]

They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports.

I wish they had this rule in place when guys were wearing nuthuggers on the court up until Jordan came around.

Some this stuff strikes me as reactionary. Dress and grooming standards simply weren't a big deal at all until the hippies came around. Around 25-30 years after Wilkinson promulgated the anti-denim rules, people in Utah County couldn't get enough of the stuff and family portraits were all denim all the time.

To be perfectly honest, I do appreciate some of the guidelines, especially the advice against tattoos. There isn't only one way to look fashionable -- but one of the ways recognized in some circles is to look "hard" (not hard in that way, sickos!) and to the extent that we advise our kids not to go that route, I'm in agreement. On the other hand, I do have an issue with the constant focus on modesty. There are things my mother could have worn back in the 60s at BYU before Wilkinson brought in the dress code that girls at BYU still can't wear. Bare shoulders simply weren't an issue.

I can't say I have the most compelling argument why I think the advice against looking "hard" is good while the overemphasis on modesty is bad. I do think that trying to look "hard" may lead a kid into association with anti-social groups -- that's just what happens in junior high and high school. On the other hand modesty seems to be an issue that members use to bludgeon each other. A girl works out in a tank top, all of a sudden some people wonder what else she's doing (since she can't follow this rule, I wonder what other rules she's not following -- does this argument sound familiar?). Ridiculous assumptions naturally result from subjective standards that lend themselves towards people trying to one-up each other.