For the Strength of Youth 2012

[Indy Coug]

Ok...but why is that a virtue? When Christ said "not my will", he was submitting to God's will, which is obviously a virtue, and why I can see value in learning to submit our will to God's. I can also see value in cases where we don't have the information--but wouldn't a loving God who cares about us developing into something greater give us that as an answer?

It's strange--to me, it seems like we focus on obedience more than any other religion, yet it seems the least important to our theology. If you just believe in a Heaven and Hell, then I can see "just do it" as a virtue. If you believe that God wants us to develop into something more than man, then the teaching and understanding that go along with reasoning through ethical decisions are valuable. It's the difference between telling my kid "Don't play in the street. Just because" and saying "Don't play in the street. Here is why..."

Is there any added value in doing it without knowing the "why" up front and allowing us to discover the "why" for ourselves down the road?

[Pheidippides]

The blind obedience question is the wrong question. It's not about the why. It's the who. It makes sense if you believe in prophets who speak the will of God in every particular and are infallible. It makes much less sense when you think about the fact that this is the same group of people who refused the priesthood to a group of people for a long time based on race despite several new testament and book of mormon scriptures that are opposed to that notion.

[Brian]

I also like DDD's question about why we need to rank sins in the first place. From a religious vantage, I just don't see the point of it. Does God think that stealing a car is worse than stealing a candy bar?

Or is stealing a car from Jay Leno worse than stealing a candy bar from a person that is starving?

I don't think sin (as our tradition generally understands it) makes a lot of sense.

[Brian]

This Indy-Rambam debate raises a point that I have struggled with for a long time--how important is obedience? Is it "the first law of heaven"? Are all blessings really predicated on obedience? I find both of these tenets really problematic, unless I define obedience as an obedience to conscience, and not obedience to authority figure for its own sake. But Indy seems to feel there is an intrinsic value to simply obeying, even it is wrong counsel. Why?

I think this only makes sense if God is an asshole.

Only an asshole would say "No" to a wife beating, alcoholic, with a pistol in his mouth, that in a sincere, moment of darkness cries out "God, please help me!"

My experience is that God is a really cool, nice guy.

[woot]

It's been a while since I've read Alma, but isn't there something in there about how god would cease to be god if he practiced any sort of unrighteous dominion? If behavior regarding earrings and diet coke and whatever else doesn't matter for salvation, is it really god that is behind them, or is the source of these things a certain group of elderly men? Perhaps it's just a coincidence that god's wishes seem an awful lot like those generally held by old white men? (Perhaps not, since the mormon god actually is an old white guy)

On the other hand, if the WoW is actually inspired, and people really shouldn't be eating junk food and meat or really should be eating healthy grains and exercising and whatnot, is the lack of emphasis on those things actually against god's will? If being a moral person actually matters for salvation more than the church's limited concept of "morality", isn't god going to be pissed when he ends up having to live with a bunch of sexually inexperienced assholes?

[Eddie]

It's been a while since I've read Alma, but isn't there something in there about how god would cease to be god if he practiced any sort of unrighteous dominion? If behavior regarding earrings and diet coke and whatever else doesn't matter for salvation, is it really god that is behind them, or is the source of these things a certain group of elderly men? Perhaps it's just a coincidence that god's wishes seem an awful lot like those generally held by old white men? (Perhaps not, since the mormon god actually is an old white guy)

On the other hand, if the WoW is actually inspired, and people really shouldn't be eating junk food and meat or really should be eating healthy grains and exercising and whatnot, is the lack of emphasis on those things actually against god's will? If being a moral person actually matters for salvation more than the church's limited concept of "morality", isn't god going to be pissed when he ends up having to live with a bunch of sexually inexperienced assholes?

You think God would be happier living with a bunch of sexually experienced assholes?

Perhaps part of the concept of morality is demonstrating some level of self-control. I tend to find that people with more self-control are less likely to be assholes. Or at least they tend to be able to hide it better.

Please don't take this as me saying that people who follow the church definition of sexual morality are not assholes. Some certainly could be. I'm more referencing the ability to demonstrate self-control and the effect of that quality on someone's behavior.

[DU Ute]

It's been a while since I've read Alma, but isn't there something in there about how god would cease to be god if he practiced any sort of unrighteous dominion? If behavior regarding earrings and diet coke and whatever else doesn't matter for salvation, is it really god that is behind them, or is the source of these things a certain group of elderly men? Perhaps it's just a coincidence that god's wishes seem an awful lot like those generally held by old white men? (Perhaps not, since the mormon god actually is an old white guy)

On the other hand, if the WoW is actually inspired, and people really shouldn't be eating junk food and meat or really should be eating healthy grains and exercising and whatnot, is the lack of emphasis on those things actually against god's will? If being a moral person actually matters for salvation more than the church's limited concept of "morality", isn't god going to be pissed when he ends up having to live with a bunch of sexually inexperienced assholes?

I couldn't pass this up.

[Donuthole]

Alright, time for the Dress and Appearance changes (deleted and added):


Dress and Appearance

Your body is God's sacred creation. Respect it as a gift from God, and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have always continually counseled His children to dress modestly. The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can exercise be a good influence on those around you others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your dress standards of dress. Do not use a special for any occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send Doing so sends the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval and that modesty is important only when it is convenient.

Immodest clothing includes is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, tight clothing shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers does not cover the shoulder and avoid clothing that shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All Young men and young women should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppyextreme or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If girls or Young women, if you desire to have their your ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and for yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities, whether on Sunday or during the week. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

Hey, get your own damn color!

[Moliere]

Hey, get your own damn color!

I was waiting for that.

[SteelBlue]

Back when UtahDan still had the Holy Ghost

UD, did you laugh at this as hard as I did?

[UtahDan]

UD, did you laugh at this as hard as I did?

Yes. I was a pretty clever apologist once.

[Uncle Ted]

I finally got around to reading the 2012 edition. I saw the following in the dating section that I don't recall reading in the older edition...

As you enter your adult years, make dating and marriage a high priority.

Getting marriage at age 18 should be a high priority?

[byu71]

I finally got around to reading the 2012 edition. I saw the following in the dating section that I don't recall reading in the older edition...



Getting marriage at age 18 should be a high priority?

BAck in the good ole sixties they really pushed this. Talks on not putting off marriage for school was common. If you weren't married within a year off your
mission people wondered about you.

However, I do know of an Apostle's son whose Dad told him to finish college first.

I will bet statistics show the longer you wait to marry the greater the chance you go inactive. That is probably why the directive.

[Uncle Ted]

BAck in the good ole sixties they really pushed this. Talks on not putting off marriage for school was common. If you weren't married within a year off your
mission people wondered about you.

However, I do know of an Apostle's son whose Dad told him to finish college first.

I will bet statistics show the longer you wait to marry the greater the chance you go inactive. That is probably why the directive.

Maybe that Apostle looked at the statistics...

Age at marriage for those who eventually divorced in the United States, 1990

Source: Monthly Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 43, No. 9, Supplement, March 22, 1995, National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

I bet statistics also show that people that divorce have a greater chance to go inactive as well.

[mUUser]

Maybe that Apostle looked at the statistics...

Age at marriage for those who eventually divorced in the United States, 1990

Source: Monthly Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 43, No. 9, Supplement, March 22, 1995, National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

I bet statistics also show that people that divorce have a greater chance to go inactive as well.

While I wouldn't advise my kids to get married while still a student, I think the real problems happen because we're counseled to have kids right away. A reasonably stable and sane married couple can get through just about anything without kids -- live like church mice, move every few months, change jobs regularly, change majors every semester, be somewhat rudderless about your career etc... However, once kids enter the mix, everything changes and the real pressures begin to mount.

As important as waiting to marry is, it's far more important to wait to have children IMO.