For the Strength of Youth 2012

[UtahDan]

But the switch can be flipped both ways. I have several friends and family who experienced the "this is not awful, this is wonderful" carnal world. And they didn't feel very guilty during their experience. However, as they got older and moved through various relationships they sought the stability of a long-term relationship with a spouse who had the same outlook. That's when they made their way back to church activity and started looking for a spouse seriously. It wasn't necessarily out of guilt but wanting something more stable because the profile of the people they were dating wasn't working for them - they weren't getting closer to marriage and weren't happy. I'm not stating that long-term stability and maritial happiness is exclusive to the LDS culture just that it was familiar and they knew that they had a decent or better chance of finding what they were looking for there versus elsewhere.

That is a good nuancing of what I said. And of course I only said "some people." My point remains that people who commit what the church deems as "serious sin" are quite a bit less likely to be lifers, though of course many still are.

[Pelado]

Yes, but they also need to understand the trigger mechanism, what it can do, how to use it properly, and to avoid putting any pressure on that trigger until it is indeed time to use it.

I guess I don't know much about guns. Please elaborate.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I guess I don't know much about guns. Please elaborate.

Nor do I. I was just riffing on the analogy.

Kids need to know about the physiological and psychological changes that come with adulthood, and to understand that certain stimuli will cause them to feel (and attempt to act) in a certain manner. I tried to tie these events to guns using the trigger analogy.

I used to believe in the 'abstinence only' stance. But as I think about raising and teaching my own children I now believe they will be better served to understand the psychological hows and the whys behind sexual activity. They need to know what are the natural 'trigger events', what the 'trigger' will cause them to desire to do, and that they need to have a healthy respect for said 'trigger'.

My philosophy is that it is better for the kids to understand and be fully aware of the situation so they will be able to remain in control of themselves, or failing that, at least be smart about it and throw on a jimmy cap. But by all means I do not want them to experience something wonderful (and possibly confusing), and fall into the trap of browbeating themselves for being 'almost as bad as a murderer'.

I am not a fan of the unofficial 'boobs are naughty' traditional mindset in the church, and I don't think it is beneficial to kids to that they progress a relationship to the point where they reach Second or Third Base, only to fall into a state of self-loathing over reaching the milestone. It should be a joyous expression of trust, but we smash that into a million pieces through pushing heavy guilt on the children. And I can't imagine how psychologically tough it would be for a young woman to touch and be touched, only to have her partner turn cold and bitter over the event. Talk about a rejection!

[Portland Ute]

But I will still demand that they carry a condom in the wallet. Probably will start the practice when they are in High School, and perhaps even duriong the later Jr High years. Kids who know full well the risks and responsibilities associated with 'making sexy time' are less likely to experiment and begin at a later age, than those who were not properly educated, according to numerous studies.

I'm sympathetic with this line of thinking. However, my personal experience would say that a kid with a wealth of knowledge, heightened awareness of risks (disease, pregnancy, limited life choices following unexpected child) and WITHOUT a condom may very well make a logical choice to avoid behaviors that result in pregnancy.

To be blunt, had I had a condom in my wallet, I can think of a few times that I would have had sexual intercourse. As it stands, I avoided it because there was no protection/birth control and I was keenly aware of what was at risk.

That's just my experience. I got married having never participated in sexual intercourse. However, I realize that there are others that have been or will be in my position that will plow ahead. Which makes me believe that girls should be on birth control and boys should carry a condom.

I don't think there is a right or wrong opinion. Although, I lean towards the birth control/condom line of thinking because sex, in the general population, is going to happen regardless. I'd rather prevent unwanted pregnancies. To me, that seems much more serious than teenagers/young adults giving in to the urges and having protected sex. Cost-benefit analysis would indicate to me that the cost of a few more kids having sex would be far outweighed by the benefit of fewer unplanned pregnancies and diseases. YOu have a chance to greatly diminish pregnancy and disease. Good luck approaching such a success rate with prevention of sex.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I disagree with The Pill. Some women can take it with little to no side effects, but a large percentage of women have some detrimental effects to go along with the beneficial effects. The hormone regulation can help, and it can clear up acne issues, but it can also cause them to pack on weight and have other physical issues (menstrual irregularity, problems with moods, water retention, etc). And it only prevents pregnancy, but not any diseases.

It seems to be far more intrusive into the kid's life than telling a son to carry a rubber in his wallet. And I can't think of a way to make that happen without seeming either too controlling of, or intrusive into, your daughter's life. I think I would also strongly recommend a daughter insist on a condom.

Luckily my kids are still pretty young so I have a few years for my feelings on the subject to evolve.

[Portland Ute]

I disagree with The Pill. Some women can take it with little to no side effects, but a large percentage of women have some detrimental effects to go along with the beneficial effects. The hormone regulation can help, and it can clear up acne issues, but it can also cause them to pack on weight and have other physical issues (menstrual irregularity, problems with moods, water retention, etc). And it only prevents pregnancy, but not any diseases.

It seems to be far more intrusive into the kid's life than telling a son to carry a rubber in his wallet. And I can't think of a way to make that happen without seeming either too controlling of, or intrusive into, your daughter's life. I think I would also strongly recommend a daughter insist on a condom.

Luckily my kids are still pretty young so I have a few years for my feelings on the subject to evolve.

I have three boys, no girls. My oldest will turn nine soon. I've got a few years, but it's something we talk about.

I had an interesting discussion with a staff member. She has all girls. Her perspective is a bit different, obviously as she is a woman, I am man and she has all girls while I have all boys.

We both came to the conclusion that it would be ideal to somehow tell kids this:

"Look, there are two groups of concerns that arise from having sex outside of marriage, 1) Possible disease and/or unwanted pregnancy and 2) spiritual and emotional pain/damage.

We strongly discourage you from participating in sex outside of marriage. Should you do so, there are some very real spiritual and emotional risks you will be taking. You know what is expected of you. That standard is set and you are expected to live it while in our house. However, this is a decision and a choice that you have to make. We cannot control your decisions nor the outcomes of those decisions on your emtional and spiritual well-being.

Now, the other issue is unwanted pregnancy. This is an issue which we can absolutely control. There is much that can be done to prevent uwanted pregnancy and/or disease. Obviously, abstinence is the desired pathway for this, but there are others such as condoms and birth control. Regardless of the choices you make about sex that affect your spiritual and emotional well-being, we expect that you will absolutely take measures to prevent unwanted diseases and pregnancy. Under no circumstance is there any reason that you should expose yourself to either."

Anyway, something like that. Separate the issue into two different aspects, address both and strongly express that prevention of pregnancy and disease is paramount regarless of the spiritual decisions, abstinence being the only 100% effective method, but acknowledging others.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Excellent points, Port. Thanks for sharing the conversation. I like the thought of seperating the two aspects from one another. (I also have only boys - oldest is 10, youngest due in March).

I just remembered this one. My wife's good friend got pregnant while in high school. She had the pill and her boyfriend's parents bought him condoms. She simply decided that she wanted to have a baby and stopped taking the pill, and she and her BF didn't want to use the condoms. Murphy's Law caught up with them.

But in the broader scope, they beat the odds and are happily married almost 19 years later. Times were hard but her family supported her decision. Now she has a great relationship with her parents and siblings, but they could just as easily cut off all contact with her.

I tell this story only because sometimes our kids simply choose another path, as painful as it may seem.

[creekster]

I just remembered this one. My wife's good friend got pregnant while in high school. She had the pill and her boyfriend's parents bought him condoms. She simply decided that she wanted to have a baby and stopped taking the pill, and she and her BF didn't want to use the condoms. Murphy's Law caught up with them.

But if she wanted to have a baby then Murphy's Law didnt really apply, did it?

[NorthwestUteFan]

But if she wanted to have a baby then Murphy's Law didnt really apply, did it?

I was speaking from the biological standpoint, but that was a bad expression in this case.

[The Rambam]

My thoughts on this

1. Rambam's take is extremely forced. Especially this comparison between physical murder and spiritual murder. Very random.
2. Alma's a little unclear. On the one hand he does refer to "these things" possibly it's a combination of multiple sins or situations, but then he clearly defines one particular sin being next to murder, not a combination.
3. Sexual sin is condemned all through the scriptures yet this poorly defined sin of forsaking the ministry and leading converts astray is not mentioned.
4. I'm fine with ranking sins. I think it's somewhat practical. But on the flip side, we should acknowledge that we all sin, and it's really not that big of a deal. We sin, we repent. That's what life is for. Saying you're a sinner is like saying you're a human. Saying you're a real serious sinner is saying you're really human. No biggie. If you look at how Jesus treated the woman taken in adultery and how Alma reacted to his son's sexual sin, you get a picture how how sin, even very serious sin, should be handled.

Respectfully, you are uniformly wrong on your first three points.

1. I am reading the text literally--there is nothing "forced" in my reading. Among Corianton's other listed weaknesses, Alma says "thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the aharlot Isabel." That is precisely what I am accusing him of, nothing more and nothing less. It is a "forced reading" to extrapolate and define what might or might not have happened if Corianton happened to have caught up with Isabel in Siron. Maybe it is legal training that makes this obvious to me--words have meanings and one should only make assumptions when forced. We are just not forced to do so here. The affect on the Zoramites is the same whether Isabel turned Corianton away in Siron or whether he tickled her belly from the inside until the toucans blushed.

2. Alma most definitely does not "clearly define one particular sin being next to murder" as you say. Alma says "these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost." This is not unclear. To know what "these things" are, just look to the just completed list of the things Alma "has against Corianton": a) not been steady in keeping commandments, b) boasting in his own strength and wisdom,--"and this is not all"--c) forsake the ministry, and d) go after the harlot. "These things are an abomination." It just isn't unclear and it isn't a forced reading--it is a literal reading, the simplest reading, the only reading that doesn't require assumptions and guessing.

3. Your observation proves my point. Hundreds of prophets have spoken on chastity from every angle and point of view. Not one of them has ever said what Elder Holland and others misrepresent Alma as having said. If it were true that chastity violations were next to murder in seriousness, why wouldn't have any other prophet said so? Why didn't Joseph Smith teach this? Why isn't there a single shred of support for so important a principle outside of the scare tactics of SWK, BRM, and other recent Church administrators? And what makes this instance of chastity violation unique (if a chastity violation occurred)? What makes this instance worthy of the "sin next to murder" appellation? It is because of the affect this sin had on so many--the Zoramites would not accept the gospel of Christ because of Corianton's example. That is what is unique about these facts, and this is what leads to the unique ranking of seriousness of "these things".

4. I agree with everything you say in paragraph 4. Amen and amen.

[jay santos]

Respectfully, you are uniformly wrong on your first three points.

1. I am reading the text literally--there is nothing "forced" in my reading. Among Corianton's other listed weaknesses, Alma says "thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the aharlot Isabel." That is precisely what I am accusing him of, nothing more and nothing less. It is a "forced reading" to extrapolate and define what might or might not have happened if Corianton happened to have caught up with Isabel in Siron. Maybe it is legal training that makes this obvious to me--words have meanings and one should only make assumptions when forced. We are just not forced to do so here. The affect on the Zoramites is the same whether Isabel turned Corianton away in Siron or whether he tickled her belly from the inside until the toucans blushed.

2. Alma most definitely does not "clearly define one particular sin being next to murder" as you say. Alma says "these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost." This is not unclear. To know what "these things" are, just look to the just completed list of the things Alma "has against Corianton": a) not been steady in keeping commandments, b) boasting in his own strength and wisdom,--"and this is not all"--c) forsake the ministry, and d) go after the harlot. "These things are an abomination." It just isn't unclear and it isn't a forced reading--it is a literal reading, the simplest reading, the only reading that doesn't require assumptions and guessing.

3. Your observation proves my point. Hundreds of prophets have spoken on chastity from every angle and point of view. Not one of them has ever said what Elder Holland and others misrepresent Alma as having said. If it were true that chastity violations were next to murder in seriousness, why wouldn't have any other prophet said so? Why didn't Joseph Smith teach this? Why isn't there a single shred of support for so important a principle outside of the scare tactics of SWK, BRM, and other recent Church administrators? And what makes this instance of chastity violation unique (if a chastity violation occurred)? What makes this instance worthy of the "sin next to murder" appellation? It is because of the affect this sin had on so many--the Zoramites would not accept the gospel of Christ because of Corianton's example. That is what is unique about these facts, and this is what leads to the unique ranking of seriousness of "these things".

4. I agree with everything you say in paragraph 4. Amen and amen.

So you're really going with the take that the unique combination of

not being steady in keeping the commandments, boasting in your strength, forsaking the ministry, and going after the harlot Jezebel

is the next greatest sin after murder?

Whew. I'm sure all CUFFers reading this can breathe easy. I doubt if any of us have committed this sin.

[The Rambam]

So you're really going with the take that the unique combination of

not being steady in keeping the commandments, boasting in your strength, forsaking the ministry, and going after the harlot Jezebel

is the next greatest sin after murder?

Whew. I'm sure all CUFFers reading this can breathe easy. I doubt if any of us have committed this sin.

You are purposefully being obtuse.

Alma is pretty clear:

"Behold, O my son, how great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites; for when they saw your cconduct they would not believe in my words. And now the Spirit of the Lord doth say unto me: Command thy children to do good, lest they lead away the hearts of many people to destruction; therefore I command you, my son, in the fear of God, that ye refrain from your iniquities; That ye turn to the Lord with all your mind, might, and strength; that ye lead away the hearts of no more to do wickedly; but rather return unto them, and acknowledge your faults and that wrong which ye have done. Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you."

Why is Alma so incensed and going so uniquely to a ranking of this sin above all others save murder and denying the HG? Because the "great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites." The sin next to causing physical death is causing spiritual death.

Again, I am not straining at any reading here or making any assumptions--just taking Alma at his word.

Corianton caused the Zoramites' spiritual death, their rejecting of the gospel, because of the list of sins Alma lays out. It could have been a different list of specific wrongdoing and it still would have been the sin next to murder. You are getting caught up on the mechanism of the spiritual death and ignoring the fact that spiritual death occurred. Surely you agree that causing someone to reject the gospel because of your bad acts is a great wrong? Why do you ignore this in favor of a reading that assumes facts not in the record?

Because you are following Kimball and Holland and others who took this tact. I don't blame you--it is very difficult to read a text contrary to how an authority figure has read it to you, regardless of what the author intended in writing the text.

[Moliere]

Alright, time for the Dress and Appearance changes (deleted and added):


Dress and Appearance

Your body is God's sacred creation. Respect it as a gift from God, and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have always continually counseled His children to dress modestly. The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can exercise be a good influence on those around you others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your dress standards of dress. Do not use a special for any occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send Doing so sends the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval and that modesty is important only when it is convenient.

Immodest clothing includes is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, tight clothing shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers does not cover the shoulder and avoid clothing that shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All Young men and young women should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppyextreme or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If girls or Young women, if you desire to have their your ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and for yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities, whether on Sunday or during the week. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

[TripletDaddy]

You are purposefully being obtuse.

Alma is pretty clear:



Why is Alma so incensed and going so uniquely to a ranking of this sin above all others save murder and denying the HG? Because the "great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites." The sin next to causing physical death is causing spiritual death.

Again, I am not straining at any reading here or making any assumptions--just taking Alma at his word.

Corianton caused the Zoramites' spiritual death, their rejecting of the gospel, because of the list of sins Alma lays out. It could have been a different list of specific wrongdoing and it still would have been the sin next to murder. You are getting caught up on the mechanism of the spiritual death and ignoring the fact that spiritual death occurred. Surely you agree that causing someone to reject the gospel because of your bad acts is a great wrong? Why do you ignore this in favor of a reading that assumes facts not in the record?

Because you are following Kimball and Holland and others who took this tact. I don't blame you--it is very difficult to read a text contrary to how an authority figure has read it to you, regardless of what the author intended in writing the text.

How can this be true? The Zoramites were already experiencing spiritual death by virtue of their own sins. Corianton was not the cause of their spiritual death. He set a bad example but that is not causation. Perhaps you are misusing the word "cause" or the Mormon notion of spiritual death.

[Pheidippides]

Alright, time for the Dress and Appearance changes (deleted and added):


Dress and Appearance

Your body is God's sacred creation. Respect it as a gift from God, and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have always continually counseled His children to dress modestly. The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can exercise be a good influence on those around you others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your dress standards of dress. Do not use a special for any occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send Doing so sends the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval and that modesty is important only when it is convenient.

Immodest clothing includes is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, tight clothing shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers does not cover the shoulder and avoid clothing that shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All Young men and young women should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppyextreme or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Someday you will receive your endowment in the temple. your dress and behavior should help you prepare for that sacred time.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If girls or Young women, if you desire to have their your ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and for yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities, whether on Sunday or during the week. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

Of all the things in the FSOTY pamphlet, this is absolutely my least favorite. Completely misses the mark as far as I'm concerned.