How would you discipline?

[jay santos]

Mormon boy touches Mormon girl's boobs. Girl resists, but only after indulging for 20 seconds or so. Both are penitent. What is the correct Church discipline?

A) Boy goes without sacrament for 3 months (or weeks...whatever)
B) Girl goes without sacrament for 3 months
C) Both boy and girl go without sacrament for 3 months
D) Other (please explain)

How does your answer change if the girl confesses first and blames the guy or vice versa?

How old are they?

If they're over 18, I say nothing and ask them not to waste my time with stupid confessions and to study their scriptures on how to repent not listen to bishops and stake presidents who guilt trip them.

If they're under 18, I give them a modified version of the above and ask permission to talk to their parents about it, and encourage them that open discussion with their parents about this stuff is much more helpful than going to see a random adult with no training on how to respond.

Edit: this is why I'll never be bishop.

[Levin]

That's seriously the only motivation I have for staying in business sometimes. The family heritage thing is nice, and all, but when the market is going to hell and I'm struggling to make ends meet, the only thing that keeps me going is knowing that this is the best way in the world to raise kids.

Please let me know if you need summer help. I have two boys who will need to find some summer hard labor in about about ten years.

This is one of the things that keeps you motivated to stay in your business; and it's one consideration that makes me seriously consider leaving mine.

[Flystripper]

Look, I know girls can be just as horny as boys, but when you're a teenager it doesn't take two to tango - it takes two to stay off the dance floor. If one person in a couple wants to get lucky it will eventually happen, because every adolescent is going to have a weak moment.

I've been a boy. Teenage boys have a one-track mind because testosterone courses through their veins in volumes that make the trans-Alaskan pipeline look like the dribbling urine stream of a 70-year-old man. If he's touching her boob it's because he can't quite make it to her pants - but he hopes to. Thinking he'll stop at the boob is like thinking a juiced up A-Rod would stop at first after wacking one to deep left - ain't gonna happen.

As for my boys, I'm hoping that after 14 hours of irrigating and fencing every day of their teenage existence, there won't be enough time left for them to hit anything but singles.

it only takes one swing and all that hard work is molding chests and abs that will cause their dates to lob underhand pitches for them to hit. Your plan may backfire on you

[Art Vandelay]

Mormon boy touches Mormon girl's boobs. Girl resists, but only after indulging for 20 seconds or so. Both are penitent. What is the correct Church discipline?

A) Boy goes without sacrament for 3 months (or weeks...whatever)
B) Girl goes without sacrament for 3 months
C) Both boy and girl go without sacrament for 3 months
D) Other (please explain)

How does your answer change if the girl confesses first and blames the guy or vice versa?

I think it goes without saying, but I will say it anyways, that most bishops believe they are entitled to guidance from the Holy Ghost and thus hypothetical answers may or may not reflect the prompting I would have in a specific situation.

For me the 2 biggest factors would be the length of time between confession and hooter-gate, and the level of contrition he and/or she had. If it was 6 months ago and nothing more has happened since then, I would congratulate her (him) on making better choices and then spend a lot of time discussing how to avoid be in a similar circumstance again. If it happened Friday night and I found out Sunday, I might ask them not to take the sacrament for 1 week, give them some scriptures to read (2Nephi 2, Alma 5, FSOY) and then meet with them the following Sunday. The decision to withhold the sacrament is not done for punishment, but rather that the individual might 1) feel they are worthy to partake of it and 2) allow them to be prepared to renew the associated covenants when they do take it again.

I'm a big believer in encouragement rather than tearing down. The individual knows they made a mistake, I don't need to brow beat them about it. I wouldn't downplay that what they did was wrong, but I would likely tell them I'm glad they realized their mistake and didn't let it go any further. Most importantly I would let them know the atonement is real and so is forgiveness and ultimately ask them "what can we learn from this experience about how quickly and easily mistakes can happen?"

[jay santos]

I think it goes without saying, but I will say it anyways, that most bishops believe they are entitled to guidance from the Holy Ghost and thus hypothetical answers may or may not reflect the prompting I would have in a specific situation.

For me the 2 biggest factors would be the length of time between confession and hooter-gate, and the level of contrition he and/or she had. If it was 6 months ago and nothing more has happened since then, I would congratulate her (him) on making better choices and then spend a lot of time discussing how to avoid be in a similar circumstance again. If it happened Friday night and I found out Sunday, I might ask them not to take the sacrament for 1 week, give them some scriptures to read (2Nephi 2, Alma 5, FSOY) and then meet with them the following Sunday. The decision to withhold the sacrament is not done for punishment, but rather that the individual might 1) feel they are worthy to partake of it and 2) allow them to be prepared to renew the associated covenants when they do take it again.

I'm a big believer in encouragement rather than tearing down. The individual knows they made a mistake, I don't need to brow beat them about it. I wouldn't downplay that what they did was wrong, but I would likely tell them I'm glad they realized their mistake and didn't let it go any further. Most importantly I would let them know the atonement is real and so is forgiveness and ultimately ask them "what can we learn from this experience about how quickly and easily mistakes can happen?"

Follow up question.

If you don't think what they did made them unworthy to take the sacrament, and telling them to refrain for one week is actually done with the intention to make them feel worthy in two weeks, do you think this could backfire? What if the person does this again a year later but didn't go to bishop right away and assumed they were unworthy to take the sacrament? What if they confessed every month for a year and got sick of the humiliation of confessing so much and decided to go on their own, and eventually gave up hope of being "worthy"? What if they did something else they had a lot of guilt over and assumed it was as bad or even worse, such as masturbation, and assumed they were unworthy to take the sacrament?

[Art Vandelay]

Follow up question.

If you don't think what they did made them unworthy to take the sacrament, and telling them to refrain for one week is actually done with the intention to make them feel worthy in two weeks, do you think this could backfire? What if the person does this again a year later but didn't go to bishop right away and assumed they were unworthy to take the sacrament? What if they confessed every month for a year and got sick of the humiliation of confessing so much and decided to go on their own, and eventually gave up hope of being "worthy"? What if they did something else they had a lot of guilt over and assumed it was as bad or even worse, such as masturbation, and assumed they were unworthy to take the sacrament?

I'm glad it was just a question and not questions, I'm not sure I would have enough openings in my day to respond.

I made a the assumption with Sooner's originial question, that this was bascially a good kid coming to me the first time for anything morality related. I absolutely think being too soft can backfire much as being too harsh can. Each bishop obviously has his own personality, part of mine is to make people feel they can be open, honest and discuss whatever needs to be talked about. Perhaps I error on being too lenient in comparison to others. With that said, If someone was coming to me every month with the same problem, I would obviously need to try a different approach because whatever I was or wasn't doing doesn't seem to be working.

I find that most teens biggest fears with confession is I will tell their parents and/or teachers and leaders. I assure them I don't do either (though often encourage them to talk to their parents with serious moral issues). They seem a lot more willing to talk about most things once they are assured I will respect their confidentiality.

I'm not sure I answered many of your questions, but as I said previously each situation is so unique and at least for me the guidance of the Spirit is essential in all of these cases.

[jay santos]

I'm glad it was just a question and not questions, I'm not sure I would have enough openings in my day to respond.

I made a the assumption with Sooner's originial question, that this was bascially a good kid coming to me the first time for anything morality related. I absolutely think being too soft can backfire much as being too harsh can. Each bishop obviously has his own personality, part of mine is to make people feel they can be open, honest and discuss whatever needs to be talked about. Perhaps I error on being too lenient in comparison to others. With that said, If someone was coming to me every month with the same problem, I would obviously need to try a different approach because whatever I was or wasn't doing doesn't seem to be working.

I find that most teens biggest fears with confession is I will tell their parents and/or teachers and leaders. I assure them I don't do either (though often encourage them to talk to their parents with serious moral issues). They seem a lot more willing to talk about most things once they are assured I will respect their confidentiality.

I'm not sure I answered many of your questions, but as I said previously each situation is so unique and at least for me the guidance of the Spirit is essential in all of these cases.

Ugh and you're one of the good bishops. I should probably stay out of your threads because I don't have a lot of good things to say about LDS middle managers. I don't mean it personal. I'm sure you're in the top 5 percentile of good bishops.

[Art Vandelay]

Ugh and you're one of the good bishops. I should probably stay out of your threads because I don't have a lot of good things to say about LDS middle managers. I don't mean it personal. I'm sure you're in the top 5 percentile of good bishops.

uh thanks? I'm certainly not the board wordsmith, but I'm fairly certain that would be categorized as a backhanded compliment. Or am I being too kind myself, did I just get kicked in the <redacted> and I'm too dumb to realize it?

[jay santos]

uh thanks? I'm certainly not the board wordsmith, but I'm fairly certain that would be categorized as a backhanded compliment. Or am I being too kind myself, did I just get kicked in the <redacted> and I'm too dumb to realize it?

Little of both. It's kind of like saying someone is one of the best Ute fans.

[Indy Coug]

uh thanks? I'm certainly not the board wordsmith, but I'm fairly certain that would be categorized as a backhanded compliment. Or am I being too kind myself, did I just get kicked in the <redacted> and I'm too dumb to realize it?

You are guilty by association. You are part of "The Man", and the "The Man" is keeping everyone down through local leadership monitoring the worthiness of the members they have been tasked to shepherd.

Jay is a big believer in never judging someone or saying someone is wrong, lest they create an insurmountable guilt complex for the poor wanderling.

[jay santos]

You are guilty by association. You are part of "The Man", and the "The Man" is keeping everyone down through local leadership monitoring the worthiness of the members they have been tasked to shepherd.

Jay is a big believer in never judging someone or saying someone is wrong, lest they create an insurmountable guilt complex for the poor wanderling.

That's reasonably fair. I'm fine myself but I worry about the youth. I view the bishop as someone who has a much larger chance to hurt my kids than help my kids.

[Non Sequitur]

That's reasonably fair. I'm fine myself but I worry about the youth. I view the bishop as someone who has a much larger chance to hurt my kids than help my kids.

Exactly. I appreciate AV, but one of the things he said bothered me:

I wouldn't downplay that what they did was wrong, but I would likely tell them I'm glad they realized their mistake and didn't let it go any further.

I had a bishop basically tell me the same thing when I was a kid. The problem was that I actually had let it go further, but had omitted it from the confession. I went around for a long time buried in guilt, convinced that I was beyond redemption. I would have been far better off if I had simply resolved the issue on my own and never talked to the bishop in the first place. I'm sure most bishops are well intentioned, but I think a lot of the time they do more harm than good.

[Goatnapper'96]

Please let me know if you need summer help. I have two boys who will need to find some summer hard labor in about about ten years.

This is one of the things that keeps you motivated to stay in your business; and it's one consideration that makes me seriously consider leaving mine.

The thought of Levin getting chummy with some ranchers from the BigHorn Basin puts a wry smile on my face. Shortly after the gray wolf is discussed I can hear the famous last words..."somebody get a rope."

[DU Ute]

I had a bishop basically tell me the same thing when I was a kid. The problem was that I actually had let it go further, but had omitted it from the confession. I went around for a long time buried in guilt, convinced that I was beyond redemption. I would have been far better off if I had simply resolved the issue on my own and never talked to the bishop in the first place. I'm sure most bishops are well intentioned, but I think a lot of the time they do more harm than good.

This is a great point, I think AV is the kind of guy that will take this to heart and will use it to make himself a better bishop. I think it does show that the bishop's council on matters like this should not be used by parents to avoid their parental responsibility of helping their children through these things.

[JohnnyLingo]

I had a bishop basically tell me the same thing when I was a kid. The problem was that I actually had let it go further, but had omitted it from the confession. I went around for a long time buried in guilt, convinced that I was beyond redemption. I would have been far better off if I had simply resolved the issue on my own and never talked to the bishop in the first place. I'm sure most bishops are well intentioned, but I think a lot of the time they do more harm than good.

1. Why did you confess to the bishop in the first place?

2. What compelled you to leave out part of your confession?

3. What would you have felt if you had not gone to see the bishop at all?