How would you discipline?

[Non Sequitur]

1. Why did you confess to the bishop in the first place?

2. What compelled you to leave out part of your confession?

3. What would you have felt if you had not gone to see the bishop at all?

1. I went to the bishop in the first place because it was part of the process. It is what was taught to me.

2. I left part of it out because I was young and because the bishop was my best friend's dad and because I was embarrassed.

3. Had I not gone to the bishop in the first place I don't think I would have suffered as much guilt. I would have just gotten over it. As I mentioned earlier, I confessed because it was part of the process, not because it was efficacious.

[JohnnyLingo]

1. I went to the bishop in the first place because it was part of the process. It is what was taught to me.

2. I left part of it out because I was young and because the bishop was my best friend's dad and because I was embarrassed.

3. Had I not gone to the bishop in the first place I don't think I would have suffered as much guilt. I would have just gotten over it. As I mentioned earlier, I confessed because it was part of the process, not because it was efficacious.

So from what I can gather your problem was more that you'd been taught you needed to confess to the bishop to gain forgiveness, and not as much what the bishop said or did.

[Non Sequitur]

So from what I can gather your problem was more that you'd been taught you needed to confess to the bishop to gain forgiveness, and not as much what the bishop said or did.

Not even close. I was merely responding to questions you had asked. That response was in no way a repudiation of anything I had said earlier. Not sure what your game is.

[jay santos]

So from what I can gather your problem was more that you'd been taught you needed to confess to the bishop to gain forgiveness, and not as much what the bishop said or did.

I'd prefer Tex taking this role.

[JohnnyLingo]

Not even close. I was merely responding to questions you had asked. That response was in no way a repudiation of anything I had said earlier. Not sure what your game is.

I don't have a game. I was just curious about your story because some things didn't make sense to me.

[Art Vandelay]

Exactly. I appreciate AV, but one of the things he said bothered me:


I had a bishop basically tell me the same thing when I was a kid. The problem was that I actually had let it go further, but had omitted it from the confession. I went around for a long time buried in guilt, convinced that I was beyond redemption. I would have been far better off if I had simply resolved the issue on my own and never talked to the bishop in the first place. I'm sure most bishops are well intentioned, but I think a lot of the time they do more harm than good.

I have thought about the risk of doing more harm than good many times and even more so after being on CUF. I think I am a very effective administrator of a large ward, yet I constantly worry if I'm a good shepherd. I discuss this with my SP and older brother often. If there is someone who needs me to be at the crossroads, I hope I can by Christlike and not merely a traffic cop quickly pointing which way I think is best. I appreciate both you and Jay for bringing this up. I have friends who are bishops who likely struggle more with the logistics and organization of their wards, but I've heard their members talk about them and I can tell the effect they are having in people's lives. I try my best and pray the Lord can make up for my shortcomings.

I am curious if you think your perception of what would have been best for the young NonSeq is effected by the disconnect you have with the Church at this stage in your life? Meaning, assuming your life still took the same course with a temple, mission, etc do you think you would have felt less guilt by confessing nothing than with your partial confession?

[Non Sequitur]

I don't have a game. I was just curious about your story because some things didn't make sense to me.

I'm sorry it didn't make sense to you. I thought I was being clear. I will reread my posts and determine if any clarifications are in order. As always, your concerns are well appreciated.

[Teenage Dirtbag]

I've not read this entire thread, but would like to say that I am personally grateful that the punishment for touching a young lady's bosom is NOT having the penis cut off.

Sooooo grateful.

[Art Vandelay]

I've not read this entire thread, but would like to say that I am personally grateful that the punishment for touching a young lady's bosom is NOT having the penis cut off.

Sooooo grateful.

That reminds of one of the [ame="http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?p=191534#post191534"]great unsolved mysteries[/ame] in CUF history. SoCal it is time to reveal your final answer.

[statman]

I have a daughter. I have two sons. I have been a teenage girl.

The kid touched her boob he didn't steal her soul. Let him keep his penis.

lol!

[Non Sequitur]

I am curious if you think your perception of what would have been best for the young NonSeq is effected by the disconnect you have with the Church at this stage in your life? Meaning, assuming your life still took the same course with a temple, mission, etc do you think you would have felt less guilt by confessing nothing than with your partial confession?

I know I would have felt less guilt had I not confessed at all. I didn't confess because I felt guilty. I confessed because it was part of the process for going on a mission. After talking to the bishop, though, and being handed the Miracle of Forgiveness to read (I remember hiding it from my parents, lest they question my righteousness), I did feel like shit.

[byu71]

Since this has turned into a touchy feely thread, looking back on my 17-19 year old time was somewhat of a shocker. The shocker was at how little resistence there was to allowing some touchy feely. My Sophomore and Jr. years it was the girls I considered adventuresome. However, my Senior year in HS and college is where the real shock came. The good girls didn't put up a huge fight either.

I will say this in mine and these young ladies defense. I never even made an attempt until I had dated a girl long enough to have taken her to a nice restaurant.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I have not read this whole thread so forgive asd I hijack it for a minute.

I am always curious at the act of withholding of the sacrament as a form of punishment for some confessional acts. I look at it with 2 sets of eyes. First it reminds me some of the act of doing 4 Hail Mary's as a response to a Catholic confessional. How does it exactly help in the atonement process.

Second, I viewed the sacrament as a renewal of covenants with Christ. During the time of repentance, I would think would be when you need to renew the covenants more than other times. Given that, it seems strange that it would be withheld during a time of greater need.

Thoughts?

[Indy Coug]

I have not read this whole thread so forgive asd I hijack it for a minute.

I am always curious at the act of withholding of the sacrament as a form of punishment for some confessional acts. I look at it with 2 sets of eyes. First it reminds me some of the act of doing 4 Hail Mary's as a response to a Catholic confessional. How does it exactly help in the atonement process.

Second, I viewed the sacrament as a renewal of covenants with Christ. During the time of repentance, I would think would be when you need to renew the covenants more than other times. Given that, it seems strange that it would be withheld during a time of greater need.

Thoughts?

Just a quick personal opinion:

Not everyone can get baptized just because they say they are ready. Certain things can require you to wait for baptism or at least have to go up the chain of command to get clearance.

Not partaking the sacrament after certain misdeeds is an analogous situation.

$0.02

[jay santos]

Just a quick personal opinion:

Not everyone can get baptized just because they say they are ready. Certain things can require you to wait for baptism or at least have to go up the chain of command to get clearance.

Not partaking the sacrament after certain misdeeds is an analogous situation.

$0.02

Two points and I'm fairly passionate about both of them

1. Touching a girls boobs or masturbating or porn viewing is not one of these misdeeds that would cause you to be unworthy of baptism. Lower level sexual sins if they be sins at all (they would be according to my definition but I doubt they would according to the accepted definition of the majority here) need not be confessed and they need not spend an inordinate amount of time being anguished over by our good youth.

This then gets into what I'll call the Elder Packer logic because I've heard this sentiment attributed to him. "We can't tell the saints how merciful God is because then they wouldn't try as hard to keep the commandments." paraphrased "We can't let Mormons feel good about themselves because then the level of legalism will decrease and that's something we really need."

In other words, we can't define a standard of what is bishop confession worthy because then the youth will sin up to that point but not over and that's not following God and if you do think you're going to do that, you'll end up crossing the line anyway. So we'll generally guilt trip them about anything and everything and make them all feel unworthy to take the sacrament.

2. These kids should be talking to their parents about sex not the bishop. We have it bass ackwards. We have one of our best bishops here and even he is basically conspiring with teenagers to hide their behavior from their parents. So all the parenting involved here, discussion about what is appropriate sexual behavior, discussion about how to overcome any behaviors if the child and parent agree its behavior that should be overcome, discussion about how they should feel about themselves, about how God sees them, all that is diverted away from the parent and to a bishop who has no training, no standardization across the church, likely has a completely different view of the gospel of me (and I'm right he's wrong!), doesn't know my kid like I do and doesn't love my kid like I do. Damn that makes me mad as a father of teenagers.