I learned in church today

[Jacob]

"Brother, you are not alone. Sister, let's talk openly. I know what you do and more, and I'm still here,"

I like that, and think it is very important and there is hardly any such place in the church, though there ought to be. Yet, your class is not composed of many such people. So the leadership wants to be careful to to put everybody in that place. I disagree with that approach, but I understand it. I wish all classes were as those that you describe, but I atypical.

We are also all very different in how we react to learning new information that may cause us to doubt. You and I seem to have had similar backgrounds, but we reacted very differently, and others will react very differently than you and I. I don't feel like I need to help people along the path that I have traveled because they will forge their own path. But, I can't help but express my views (and argue them) quite often when the opportunity presents itself.

Here's an interesting tangent.
I moved back to my old home town last year. My first sacrament meeting was fast Sunday. A friend, who I didn't know well as a youth stood up and bore testimony of how great an example I was to him as a youth and that I had inspired him to serve a mission, for which he was very grateful. i was a bit embarrassed as I don't want anyone relying on me for spiritual strength, and I thought that I am not the same as I was a zealous youth. AS it turns out, that was the last time the friend attended church. He left his wife and kids because he wanted to live a more gay friendly lifestyle. I doubt I had much to do with his decision to serve a mission, let alone his decision to marry and have children, and much less to do with his decision to leave that all behind. He forged his own path and my pushing or pulling him one way or the other was likely of little consequence. This probably all sounds a bit too apathetic. So I'll end.

[Uncle Ted]

Hell, he got off easy compared to the Brother of Jared.

Yes, indeed. The Bro. of Jared had to endure seeing the finger of God.

[thesaint258]

I wish I could attend your class.

Me, too. Speaking of church in the internet age, maybe we can get Nikuman to live-stream his lessons. I'd watch them, even during my own ward's Sunday School class.

When I taught EQ, I used the lesson/conference talk as a basic outline of the topics to discuss, but I always brought in other material. I didn't particularly enjoy that ward, but I have to say that it felt really good when I was asked to sub for one of the Sunday School teachers because she heard from someone in the EQ that my lessons were really good. Niku, keep doing what you're doing. If the bishop is asked to reign you in, or anything else, it's their loss. Even if that happens, I bet you'll find a lot of members seek you out to discuss things, as they're doing now and as they've done in the past.

[Pheidippides]

Me, too. Speaking of church in the internet age, maybe we can get Nikuman to live-stream his lessons. I'd watch them, even during my own ward's Sunday School class.

Not sure about livestreaming, but didn't Pellegrino share his prep and thoughts in the past? I'm not on his level but I'd be happy to do something like that if there's interest.

(Side note: the props did work out well on Sunday. I gave three members Japanese books, then gave one nothing, the second a Japanese-Japanese dictionary, and the third a Santa hat and a couple of stones, then asked them all who could get me the best translation the fastest. Then we talked about my experiences translating professionally and how that was nothing like what we are dealing with here, the point being that the BOM was miraculous if you believe the narrative so why should a seer stone in a hat make any difference?)

[Green Monstah]

Our SS lesson was regarding Oliver Cowdery's inability to translate the BOM and the Lord's instruction to him that he had to do more thinking before expecting anything from the Lord. I was never in love with this expectation, but has always been good excuse for why I was not receiving an answer to prayer. It is one of those "too convenient" excuses. But it has always been an effective one, and perhaps a good one.

Anyway, as the class discussed the story, it struck me as a pretty bad excuse in the circumstances that it was first given to Oliver Cowdery. Here was Oliver, hopeful to translate by the power of god, and in a prior revelation, he was promised the gift of revelation to translate. When he couldn't do it, he was no doubt discouraged. then Section 9. You should have worked it out in your mind first. "Should have tried a little harder." How was he supposed to work it out in his mind? we are dealing with a lost language. There is nothing to work out. Either your translate by the gift of God, or you don't translate. There was no Rosetta stone. So, Oliver didn't try hard enough and doesn't get to work on the BOM anymore, but he is promised there are more records that he will translate. Which leads to another almost too convenient excuse: the people are not righteous enough to deserve the other records, so nobody has found them or translated them.

During the third hour I went to Smith's. Cant believe Smiths is out of bananas, red vine tomatoes, and basil leaves. I know its superbowl, but who is stocking up on basil leaves and bananas?

Maybe "working it out in your mind" is code word for "be a little more imaginative."

[Goatnapper'96]

Not sure about livestreaming, but didn't Pellegrino share his prep and thoughts in the past? I'm not on his level but I'd be happy to do something like that if there's interest.

(Side note: the props did work out well on Sunday. I gave three members Japanese books, then gave one nothing, the second a Japanese-Japanese dictionary, and the third a Santa hat and a couple of stones, then asked them all who could get me the best translation the fastest. Then we talked about my experiences translating professionally and how that was nothing like what we are dealing with here, the point being that the BOM was miraculous if you believe the narrative so why should a seer stone in a hat make any difference?)

Those lessons always made pelligrino look like he had a body by pipe cleaner!

[UtahDan]

I've been exactly where you are Niku. I hope you are happy where ever the wind carries you. And if they ask you to teach seminary....you might want to turn that down.

[UtahDan]

By the way do any of you listen to Jared Anderson's Sunday school podcast? I have never listened but I have heard good things.

[Pheidippides]

By the way do any of you listen to Jared Anderson's Sunday school podcast? I have never listened but I have heard good things.

I did for BOM, but haven't for the D&C. I found him to be a bit overly apologetic and academic for my tastes but he offered up some great ideas, many o which I incorporated.

Edit: Seminary is a no-go for me. Training won't allow it, and the risks are much higher. My wife thinks I'd do well with it, but I wouldn't accept that worth telling the stake exactly how unorthodox I would be.

[tooblue]

Jacob, you are exactly right. It is a tightrope act. The fact of the matter is that I was blindsided at 25 and that is what drives me. I was a zealot, I thought I knew it all, I thought my faith and testimony was unshakable. I was black and white, 100 percent in. I accepted arguments about fence sitters in heaven, and thought polygamy was about having more babies.

I hate that me, but I have to live with who I was. The process to getting to who I am now nearly cost me marriage and my sanity, although not in the ways you'd expect. I went deeper inside into a
shell, embracing my zealotry as a defense mechanism against my crumbling fortress. But when the weakened and corrupted fortress fell, it was spectacular and terrible.

I am always going to be a skeptic and I am okay with that now. The man who was climbing up the ranks of leadership is gone now, and good riddance. I value different things from church, small things: community, friendship, a history of questioning, acts of service and friendship. But there is a burden of seeing the naked emperor in his bloated bureaucratic filth as well, unwilling to move, lacking the flexibility that change requires.

This is what I mean when I say I have no hope for myself. Truth, as a religious matter, is irrelevant. True agnosticism, the absence of knowledge, is my friend and enemy.

But if I can reach out to the others I know exist in my ward and say, "Brother, you are not alone. Sister, let's talk openly. I know what you do and more, and I'm still here," then I am fulfilled. Let's talk about Oliver Cowdery and his divining rod. Let's discuss autumnal equinoxes as significant and a reason why Joseph would expect something. Let's be honest about Martin Harris' nagging doubt, for a lot of us have nagging doubts too. There's so much to make us feel a human kinship in these stories. Why should we discard a beautiful but flawed tapestry for our usual paint-by-number?

And maybe if we view our doctrine as something still unsure with lots of room for freedom, maybe if we view our prophets not as such but as men with opinions and occasional flashes of the divine (that are clearly identified as such) we'll stop judging and instead welcome the new brother with the tattoos or the woman with thrice-pierced ears. So many people in the church have the heart and soul for this already, and many more would if their benevolent tendencies hadn't been conditioned out of them through years of studying the minutiae of priesthood keys.

Now I'm waxing silly. I expect too much, and I am far from this kind of ideal myself, as you all know. But as long as I have an audience I'll keep trying. One honest lesson at a time.

/soliloquy

I honestly do not know or have encountered the LDS world you purport to live in. Most of the men and woman I serve with are tattooed and pierced on the outside and the inside. The diversity of culture and personal experience of these souls is remarkable. Universally, these saints are greeted with open arms. Universally they serve valiantly in all variety of callings in my LDS world, including as Bishops and Stake Presidents.

This past weekend I sent two of my boys to a Priest, Laurel conference. They had a great time. Their favourite workshop was about evolution and was held in the chapel. A topic chosen by the youth in a regional youth committee meeting. My sons loved the irony and the honesty of it all. They were told directly what the churches position is ... that the Church has no official position on evolution, and each member is entitled to his or her own personal views on the subject.

Their second favourite workshop was about being deceived on the Internet (or, being catfished). These are the types of subjects we talk about each week in priests quorum with the Bishop present. Mostly, though we focus on how to be better prepared for life after high school; how to prepare for university, college, vocational training and missionary service.

Maybe it's just a fact of where I live. Maybe, it's just perspective? I think it would be healthy if you could let go of the disillusionment you are clinging to. But, it is your burden to endure and I can accept that. Rest assured though, there are many excellent teachers in the church in various Wards and Stakes. My Brother in law is one ... though, at the moment, he is currently serving in a Bishopric. Our current GD teacher is much like you also. He was born in Italy. He has served as a Bishop, in a Stake Presidency and in a Temple Presidency. I home teach him. Each month he has something interesting to teach my sons about the church it's teachings and history. He loves the churches warts. I neither love or, hate them. I just think they are warts.

The church is growing, changing and evolving. Good luck with your lessons.

[Pheidippides]

Is it GD or GE that you teach? I presume it's GD, but you also recently taught GE, I believe.

Scotty, I meant to answer this. I got switched from GE to GD about six months (?) ago. I was a bit more conservative in GE but would vary based on the composition of the class.

[Portland Ute]

Our SS lesson was regarding Oliver Cowdery's inability to translate the BOM and the Lord's instruction to him that he had to do more thinking before expecting anything from the Lord. I was never in love with this expectation, but has always been good excuse for why I was not receiving an answer to prayer. It is one of those "too convenient" excuses. But it has always been an effective one, and perhaps a good one.

Anyway, as the class discussed the story, it struck me as a pretty bad excuse in the circumstances that it was first given to Oliver Cowdery. Here was Oliver, hopeful to translate by the power of god, and in a prior revelation, he was promised the gift of revelation to translate. When he couldn't do it, he was no doubt discouraged. then Section 9. You should have worked it out in your mind first. "Should have tried a little harder." How was he supposed to work it out in his mind? we are dealing with a lost language. There is nothing to work out. Either your translate by the gift of God, or you don't translate. There was no Rosetta stone. So, Oliver didn't try hard enough and doesn't get to work on the BOM anymore, but he is promised there are more records that he will translate. Which leads to another almost too convenient excuse: the people are not righteous enough to deserve the other records, so nobody has found them or translated them.

During the third hour I went to Smith's. Cant believe Smiths is out of bananas, red vine tomatoes, and basil leaves. I know its superbowl, but who is stocking up on basil leaves and bananas?

Sadly, I think this is very similar to what I've heard when I've expressed sincere thoughts/feelings that I haven't received a confirmation/knowledge regarding the veracity of the truth of the LDS church and its dogmas.

Like Oliver, I think, "Wait, what the 'heck?' I went on a mission on blind faith because I was told that if I exhibited faith, my doubts would go away and I'd "know." They didn't. Then I was told to do this. Or that. And I never got the "gift" I was seeking either. How much is enough????"

It seems like Oliver was chasing a dangling carrot that was nearly impossible to catch. I feel a lot like him.

[Jacob]

Sadly, I think this is very similar to what I've heard when I've expressed sincere thoughts/feelings that I haven't received a confirmation/knowledge regarding the veracity of the truth of the LDS church and its dogmas.

Like Oliver, I think, "Wait, what the 'heck?' I went on a mission on blind faith because I was told that if I exhibited faith, my doubts would go away and I'd "know." They didn't. Then I was told to do this. Or that. And I never got the "gift" I was seeking either. How much is enough????"

It seems like Oliver was chasing a dangling carrot that was nearly impossible to catch. I feel a lot like him.

But Oliver left and came back to the fold. It's an interesting story. Too bad we don't have more of it from him.

[Portland Ute]

But Oliver left and came back to the fold.

I've got a lot of life in me yet...

[wuapinmon]

Let me first say that what you are doing is precisely the way I would do it if I had your calling, except that you are probably putting forth a bit more prep time than I would. I empathize with your entire plight.

However, I question whether you can pull this off. Most teachers (and active LDS members) are biased against presenting the historical facts accurately, such that they will avoid a description of "just the fact." OTOH, you and I are biased the other way and, given what you said in the bolded sentence above, it must be very difficult for you (or me) to not let your (and my) bias come through in the way that we teach. How will you prevent your friends from going down the path you went down by giving them the information that led you down that path? Are you merely trying to provide a gentle landing, and if so, I can see how that could cause concern to an ecclesiastical leader. I can see how you would like to help people learn what you learned without losing faith, but how is that possible if it is already too late for you? If you believe yourself too far gone, then I can't understand how your motivation can be to keep people faithful WITH the truth, rather than merely providing them the truth as you see it. (I shouldn't say "merely" in that last sentence because you and I both think that a truthful, or fair, representation of the fact is of utmost importance.

Again, I empathize with your plight. I think you are trying to fight the good fight. But it seems like you are walking a tightrope of your own making.

I reject this line of thinking outright. "We can't talk about the truth because, what if......."

Present the truth, little by little, without malice, and the culture will change. I'm guessing nikuman isn't dickering over points of doctrine, but rather over the way people interpret the doctrine and make the history fit a narrative that makes conversion and retention easier.

The culture got where it is little by little, it won't change quickly, rather, line upon line......