I learned in church today

[Tone Loc]

Only when it comes to reading.


Too bad your point is obscured by your poor choice of language.

I'll bet when Bruce R. sat down to write MODOC his intention was to entertain the masses. What a massive fail on his part.

I might agree with you on the language point. Douche just really seems to fit but maybe you can help me out with some alternate choices that I can use in the future. Thanks in advance!

[creekster]

I'll bet when Bruce R. sat down to write MODOC his intention was to entertain the masses. What a massive fail on his part.

I might agree with you on the language point. Douche just really seems to fit but maybe you can help me out with some alternate choices that I can use in the future. Thanks in advance!

You are reading too much into it. I didn't say excitement was the point of the book, but you did take it that way. Of course, at this point the record says you cant decide if you want to endorse the book or not, so I guess I am a little unclear why you feel attacked.

As to the insult, I am sure you can come up with something that doesn't tend to alienate readers on the basis of gender. But, again, suit yourself (within reason).

[NorthwestUteFan]

Of course. I post something about Utah (actually not even about Utah ... I said Mormon culture ... it just happens to much more prevalent here for obvious reasons) and instead of a discussion on the substance of my post, it's slam FM time.

It is brutal when that happens. A few yahoos derail it, and everybody wants to pile on, so the meaningful posts can get skipped.

Sigh. I should have stayed away.

We actually had a GREAT sacrament meeting this week. Missionary themed. The WML spoke about Mormon culture vs. the Gospel and described what the ward family was like when they lived in Boston vs. here. His wife is a convert and she spoke as well. Talked about how she has had issues over the year and offended people due to not fitting in. Also mentioned that she thinks that is the biggest issue with convert retention (and I think I have posted that here as well).

The culture in New England generally, and to a lesser extent Boston (because it is a more cosmopolitan melting pot), can be somewhat closed, intolerant and/or wary of newcomers. They can be clannish and closed society, which I believe stems from essentially cocooning for 4-6 months every winter because it is too damn cold to go out, meaning they only understand how to interact with people for a few months a year. This means they come off as snobbish at first. After they get to know you, though, they are the most kind, giving, shirt-off-the-back kind of people one could hope to meet.

It took us several YEARS to fit in with the local crowd at church, although we were immediately embraced by our "transplanted" neighbors. We seriously contemplated quitting church altogether when people would mutter rude things under their breath about our out of control 3 year-old.

The fact that your WML's wife felt like an outcast, and compared it with her experience living in New England, speaks volumes about the closed society of Mormon Utah.

When I remember how I was treated as a newcomer I try to go out of my way to make everybody feel welcome at church. The simple charitable act of looking somebody in the eye, shaking their hand, and saying "Hi! Good to see you today!" may make the difference between somebody coming back next week and never returning.

I especially try to talk to the new people every week. I believe many feelings of tension within our wards can be soothed by more people doing this one thing.

[wuapinmon]

Of course. I post something about Utah (actually not even about Utah ... I said Mormon culture ... it just happens to much more prevalent here for obvious reasons) and instead of a discussion on the substance of my post, it's slam FM time.

FM. I got baptized at 17. I lived in Utah for five years. Utah is awesome, and yet, your criticisms are reflective of the general feeling that non-Utah American members feel and see about Utah. Homogeneous culture of race and religion leads to oddities that are misunderstood by outsiders, which you will probably always be.

So, between FM and Lebowski, you're both right. Utah is a great place with great people who are also, generally, a little too homogeneous for those from other lands.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Sorry for the threadjack.

I am fairly certain I stopped learning truly "new" things back when I was in my teens, or maybe even as a missionary. Part of the beauty of the gospel is in its simplicity, I guess.

However I continually learn new nuances. Usually it depends greatly upon the instructor's level of preparation. I cannot remember the last time I learned something new in Sacrament Meeting.

[FMCoug]

So, between FM and Lebowski, you're both right. Utah is a great place with great people who are also, generally, a little too homogeneous for those from other lands.

I agree with this. There are things I absolutely love about living in Utah. I just get tired of getting slammed every time I post ANYTHING about the culture.

And the reason this bothers me? One of the biggest values of CUF is the ability to talk about things in the Foyer you can't elsewhere. For me, this is all about the culture, not doctrine, not history, etc. So I am effectively barred from having said discussions.

[FMCoug]

You are reading too much into it. I didn't say excitement was the point of the book, but you did take it that way. Of course, at this point the record says you cant decide if you want to endorse the book or not, so I guess I am a little unclear why you feel attacked.

As to the insult, I am sure you can come up with something that doesn't tend to alienate readers on the basis of gender. But, again, suit yourself (within reason).

Any book can be engaging. This is what separates good authors from bad IMO. If a book about databases (or other dry technical stuff) can be written in an engagine manner, a religous book sure as hell can.

[YOhio]

And the reason this bothers me? One of the biggest values of CUF is the ability to talk about things in the Foyer you can't elsewhere. For me, this is all about the culture, not doctrine, not history, etc. So I am effectively barred from having said discussions.

Oh, brother. You just don't like being challenged. Whenever you are, you go into 'poor persecuted FM' mode so you don't have to have the real discussion.

[Donuthole]

I agree with this. There are things I absolutely love about living in Utah. I just get tired of getting slammed every time I post ANYTHING about the culture.

And the reason this bothers me? One of the biggest values of CUF is the ability to talk about things in the Foyer you can't elsewhere. For me, this is all about the culture, not doctrine, not history, etc. So I am effectively barred from having said discussions.

Like Lebowski implied, maybe if you had some tact and didn't make sweeping generalizations with every single Utah culture comment, you'd get some traction with the "substance" of your posts. As it is, your posts on the topic usually lack substance altogether, and read more like CB-style cheap shots than anything substantive.

[FMCoug]

Oh, brother. You just don't like being challenged. Whenever you are, you go into 'poor persecuted FM' mode so you don't have to have the real discussion.

What challenge? Was there any discussion at all about what I posted? No.

I find it interesting that what I posted was what SOMEONE ELSE said about Mormon culture ... yet this is about me.

Typical.

[Jeff Lebowski]

What challenge? Was there any discussion at all about what I posted? No.

I find it interesting that what I posted was what SOMEONE ELSE said about Mormon culture ... yet this is about me.

Typical.

What the hell? Explain to me how I didn't respond to what you posted. I quoted it for heaven's sake.

[YOhio]

What challenge? Was there any discussion at all about what I posted? No.

I find it interesting that what I posted was what SOMEONE ELSE said about Mormon culture ... yet this is about me.

Typical.

You poor thing!

Really though, I agree that Mormon culture has some significant problems and hypocrisies. I cannot think of many times on CUF when someone has defended the more strange parts of Mormon culture. What people have defended are those who you implicate without cause, namely every person living in Utah. An example in your recent post of describing every teenage girl living in the state, except your daughter, as a Stepford and vanilla. Do you not see how this undermines your valid critiques of LDS culture?

[Donuthole]

What challenge? Was there any discussion at all about what I posted? No.

I find it interesting that what I posted was what SOMEONE ELSE said about Mormon culture ... yet this is about me.

Typical.

Yes, this is all about what SOMEONE ELSE said about Mormon culture. I'm sure it was the woman speaking in church who used the term "Stepford Utah girls". I bet that went over well.

[FMCoug]

What the hell? Explain to me how I didn't respond to what you posted. I quoted it for heaven's sake.

Fair enough. You chose to skip the main point of the post (the sacrament meeting talk) and targe my words in the second part. Fine.

It's clear a rational discussion of these things can't be had if it involves me.

[Donuthole]

It's clear a rational discussion of these things can't be had if it involves me.

Well, at least you're good at common denominators.