I learned in church today

[Green Monstah]

Tell her in the future that her response needs to be something along the lines of "President Uchtdorf says that once we know the "why", then the rest makes sense. I'm just asking the question that an Apostle and member of the First Presidency says I should ask. And have you noticed how dreamy he is?????"

FIFY.

[Scorcho]

Let me preface this by saying, forgive my ignorance on this gospel topic. I will never claim to be a Scriptorian, Church History Expert or some Gospel Mind Jedi. My family should feel blessed that my wife remembers reading the scriptures together as a family at least a couple days per week, whether we need it or not. I am the enforcer, and my wife is the rememberer. It’s not that I don’t enjoy reading the Book of Mormon, it’s just that I know how it ends, and I promise that once the lost 116 pages are released, I’ll be one of the first people waiting in line at Deseret Book/ and or Seagull Book and Tape or downloading a bootlegged copy off of the interwebs.

After listening to the Sustaining Church Officers lesson last Sunday, my simple observation is this; When a new Prophet needs to be chosen, why is automatic that the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve receives that calling? I certainly don’t doubt that any member of the Quorum is worthy of the calling of Prophet. They are all good, learned men. I just question the why? I can’t recall another calling in the church where tenure is of any importance, except at the highest level. Is this simply just precedent, or was there some revelation given that the Prophet shall automatically be the highest Tenured member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

I am fully prepared that the only answer is that is how God has organized it and I'm okay with that.

[Green Monstah]

Let me preface this by saying, forgive my ignorance on this gospel topic. I will never claim to be a Scriptorian, Church History Expert or some Gospel Mind Jedi. My family should feel blessed that my wife remembers reading the scriptures together as a family at least a couple days per week, whether we need it or not. I am the enforcer, and my wife is the rememberer. It’s not that I don’t enjoy reading the Book of Mormon, it’s just that I know how it ends, and I promise that once the lost 116 pages are released, I’ll be one of the first people waiting in line at Deseret Book/ and or Seagull Book and Tape or downloading a bootlegged copy off of the interwebs.

After listening to the Sustaining Church Officers lesson last Sunday, my simple observation is this; When a new Prophet needs to be chosen, why is automatic that the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve receives that calling? I certainly don’t doubt that any member of the Quorum is worthy of the calling of Prophet. They are all good, learned men. I just question the why? I can’t recall another calling in the church where tenure is of any importance, except at the highest level. Is this simply just precedent, or was there some revelation given that the Prophet shall automatically be the highest Tenured member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

I am fully prepared that the only answer is that is how God has organized it and I'm okay with that.

I don't know the answer.

I hope the answer is that it avoids "politicking" for the Presidency. The method for choosing the next President is set in stone and is completely in the hands of the Twelve's geriatrists.

[Scorcho]

after surfing the net a little, this is what I've come up with:

- The Lord can reveal that someone other than the senior member of the twelve can be appointed, but that hasn't occurred yet.

- there are differences between a normal calling and that of being called an apostle. Obviously an apostle is called for life and therefore different circumstances apply.

- The entire Quorum of the Twelve are all Prophets, Seers and Revelators and as a group lead the church.

[Omaha 680]

after surfing the net a little, this is what I've come up with:

- The Lord can reveal that someone other than the senior member of the twelve can be appointed, but that hasn't occurred yet.

- there are differences between a normal calling and that of being called an apostle. Obviously an apostle is called for life and therefore different circumstances apply.

- The entire Quorum of the Twelve are all Prophets, Seers and Revelators and as a group lead the church.

I'm not a scriptorian either, but this is how I see it: The senior apostle is the leader of the chruch upon the death of the president by virtue of being the president of the quorum of apostles. Typically the First Presidency is reconstituted shortly thereafter, but not always. The main example is Brigham Young waiting 3 years to reconstitute the first presidency after Joseph's death.

So if the senior apostle is the leader of the church automatically after the death of the president, and the first presidency won't be reconstituted until the senior apostle directs, I don't see why they would choose anyone different than the senior apostle.

Feel free to correct me anyone.

[Jeff Lebowski]

- The Lord can reveal that someone other than the senior member of the twelve can be appointed, but that hasn't occurred yet.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that we will never see this happen.

[Paperback Writer]

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that we will never see this happen.

While I agree, I wonder what the church would do if an apostle suffers from dementia/Alzheimers. They are called for life. The Q12 could still function and the First Presidency could still function even if the prophet suffers from such a disease. But I wonder what would happen if the prophet dies and the senior apostle is suffering from Alzheimers. I could see the Q12 taking the next in line.

[Jeff Lebowski]

While I agree, I wonder what the church would do if an apostle suffers from dementia/Alzheimers. They are called for life. The Q12 could still function and the First Presidency could still function even if the prophet suffers from such a disease. But I wonder what would happen if the prophet dies and the senior apostle is suffering from Alzheimers. I could see the Q12 taking the next in line.

Good point. That would be interesting.

[Green Monstah]

While I agree, I wonder what the church would do if an apostle suffers from dementia/Alzheimers. They are called for life. The Q12 could still function and the First Presidency could still function even if the prophet suffers from such a disease. But I wonder what would happen if the prophet dies and the senior apostle is suffering from Alzheimers. I could see the Q12 taking the next in line.

He's a snarky prick, but isn't this essentially what Steve Benson claims happened to ETB for the last three years of his life?

[Pheidippides]

I'm not a scriptorian either, but this is how I see it: The senior apostle is the leader of the chruch upon the death of the president by virtue of being the president of the quorum of apostles. Typically the First Presidency is reconstituted shortly thereafter, but not always. The main example is Brigham Young waiting 3 years to reconstitute the first presidency after Joseph's death.

So if the senior apostle is the leader of the church automatically after the death of the president, and the first presidency won't be reconstituted until the senior apostle directs, I don't see why they would choose anyone different than the senior apostle.

Feel free to correct me anyone.

The simple answer to this is tradition. But it's more complicated than that. Based on what I've read, the original concept was that nobody could fill Joseph's shoes and nobody wanted to try to be him and or The Prophet. But more than a few people vied for the leadership of the church after his death, as is well documented. It essentially broke down into two parties: the people who wanted to keep doing the temple/polygamy/theocracy "secret" stuff (recall that these three things were not commonly known) and those who did not. And Sidney Rigdon. brigham young represented the former group as most senior apostles, arguing that the apostles should take over as they had the keys collectively, while president marks, president of the nauvoo stake, was backed by Emma among others. There was a real dispute here, because the Stakes were not subordinate to the Apostles but coequal with them, with the stake high council governing affairs in Zion, as it were, and the apostles operating outside of them. Think stakes and districts. (this is grossly simplifying things, to be clear).

From what I gather, BY reestablishing the FP was a bold and shocking move, as he was doing precisely what he said shouldn't be done in taking his place as Joseph's replacement. I seem to recall there was some opposition to this, at least at first. I also seem to recall that the 12 and FP did not claim to be Prophet, Seers and Revelators until after this time, but don't hold me to that as I'm rusty.

It was clear thereafter that it was the senior apostle who took over. By the time of Wilford Woodruff, it was established precedent.

Again, I'm doing this from memory so corrections appreciated.

[DapperDan]

After listening to the Sustaining Church Officers lesson last Sunday, my simple observation is this; When a new Prophet needs to be chosen, why is automatic that the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve receives that calling? I certainly don’t doubt that any member of the Quorum is worthy of the calling of Prophet. They are all good, learned men. I just question the why? I can’t recall another calling in the church where tenure is of any importance, except at the highest level. Is this simply just precedent, or was there some revelation given that the Prophet shall automatically be the highest Tenured member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

I am fully prepared that the only answer is that is how God has organized it and I'm okay with that.

Here's the history of why the succession works like it does now. https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5216

I haven't managed to finish reading it myself, but the short version is that Joseph Smith left eight separate succession plans and the one we have now eventually won out.

...between 1834 and 1844 Joseph Smith had by word or action established precedents or authority for eight possible methods of succession:

1. By a counselor in the First Presidency
2. By a special appointment
3. Through the office of Associate President
4. By the Presiding Patriarch
5. By the Council of Fifty
6. By the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
7. by three priesthood councils
8. By a decendent of Joseph Smith, Jr

[TexTechCoug]

JL, thanks for the HB Brown talk, that was fantastic. Posted it on CB, crickets.

[Paperback Writer]

He's a snarky prick, but isn't this essentially what Steve Benson claims happened to ETB for the last three years of his life?

The difference was that ETB was in reasonably good health at the time of SWK's death. The scenario I described would have occurred if SWK remained in good health and passed away in 1993 instead of 1985. But then SWK would have lived to be 98 instead of 90. GBH almost made it to 98 so the scenario is possible.

I think there would be a difference between the First Presidency and Q12 leading the church with a prophet who develops diminished mental capacities while in office than with a senior apostle who would start out that way. It would be interesting.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

While I agree, I wonder what the church would do if an apostle suffers from dementia/Alzheimers. They are called for life. The Q12 could still function and the First Presidency could still function even if the prophet suffers from such a disease. But I wonder what would happen if the prophet dies and the senior apostle is suffering from Alzheimers. I could see the Q12 taking the next in line.

I had a similar line of thinking over the weekend as I was preparing my lesson on prophets. Although I'm fairly young and my prophet exposure begins with President Kimball, it occurred to me that it really is no small miracle how aware these men have been up until their passing. I know that both of my grandfathers would have been in no position to guide a world wide organization up to their passing. Both had several years where just having a conversation with them resulted in confusion on both parties. It's not anything that I'm going to base my testimony on, but seemed like an observation of note that we have a Gordon B. Hinckley and not a David B. Haight calling the shots.

[Northwestcoug]

Bad things happen to all of us. But if you don't read the Book of Mormon every day, those bad things can destroy you.