The HBO Original Programming Thread

[Bo Diddley]

:yikes: I couldn't watch that.

[Sullyute]

Dumb question, but how old was Dylon when the alleged abuse happened?

Edit: never mind I googled it. Yikes.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Dumb question, but how old was Dylon when the alleged abuse happened?

7 years old.

[Pelado]

7 years old.

Sickening.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I haven't watched the series yet, and probably won't, in part because I've read most of this before, and the series is clearly a one-sided, if highly compelling, presentation. The producers claim disingenuously they gave Woody the chance to give his side of the story, but did so only in December, I'd guess long after the film was in the can. In his autobiography, Woody presents a strong case of his own (I strongly recommend the book for other reasons, esp. if one likes any of Woody's oeuvre). But one of the best (of many) defenses of Woody comes from Mia's son, Moses, who makes a strong and well-written case. I'm uncertain what really happened, but no one can deny that is one very sick family.

One excerpt from Moses's essay:

To those who have become convinced of my father’s guilt, I ask you to consider this: In this time of #MeToo, when so many movie heavyweights have faced dozens of accusations, my father has been accused of wrongdoing only once, by an enraged ex-partner during contentious custody negotiations. During almost 60 years in the public eye, not one other person has come forward to accuse him of even behaving badly on a date, or acting inappropriately in any professional situation, let alone molesting a child. As a trained professional, I know that child molestation is a compulsive sickness and deviation that demands repetition. Dylan was alone with Woody in his apartment countless times over the years without a hint of impropriety, yet some would have you believe that at the age of 56, he suddenly decided to become a child molester in a house full of hostile people ordered to watch him like a hawk.

Serious question: does the series cite other examples of wrongdoing by Woody?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Serious question: does the series cite other examples of wrongdoing by Woody?

I am going to split my answer into two posts. Responding to this first.

They feature a lot of evidence showing Allen's sexual obsession with young girls, including at least two affairs with teenagers, sex between older men and young girls as a constant theme in his movies, and a ton of information from his memoirs such as unpublished scripts, drafts of scripts, etc illustrating this obsession.

But let's dig into the "he couldn't be a child molester because there were no other incidents" line of reasoning. This is a constantly repeated defense by Allen apologists. Is that really significant? There are in fact many cases of molestation with a single victim. 90% of abuse cases involve a close family member or trusted friend. Maybe this was the only real opportunity Allen had. He didn't have any children and was rarely around children prior to his relationship with Farrow. And by all accounts, he was obsessed with Dylan from the start. After the incident, he probably didn't have many opportunities and was under hyper-scrutiny.

Furthermore, how do you know there aren't more victims? After studying this case and the Weinstein case I 100% understand why victims don't come forward in many cases involving powerful men. The personal cost is enormous. Once you say something it becomes the defining moment of your life and the backlash is overwhelming. If I had a daughter in such a circumstance I am not sure I would advise her to go public.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I haven't watched the series yet, and probably won't, in part because I've read most of this before, and the series is clearly a one-sided, if highly compelling, presentation. The producers claim disingenuously they gave Woody the chance to give his side of the story, but did so only in December, I'd guess long after the film was in the can. In his autobiography, Woody presents a strong case of his own (I strongly recommend the book for other reasons, esp. if one likes any of Woody's oeuvre). But one of the best (of many) defenses of Woody comes from Mia's son, Moses, who makes a strong and well-written case. I'm uncertain what really happened, but no one can deny that is one very sick family.

Well, I am going to disagree about both “strong” and “well-written”. Let’s dissect some of his arguments:

Then, of course, the news of Woody and Soon-Yi went public – and everything changed. My mother insisted that we remove both of them from our lives, and we had no choice but to accept.

What is the proper way for a mother to behave when her partner is caught having sex with her daughter?

In truth, Woody and Soon-Yi rarely even spoke during her childhood. It was my mother who first suggested, when Soon-Yi was 20, that Woody reach out and spend time with her. He agreed and started taking her to Knicks games. That’s how their romance started.

Blame Mia. Part of a constant theme for the Allen apologists.

It was important to my mother to project to the world a picture of a happy blended household of both biological and adopted children, but this was far from the truth. I’m sure my mother had good intentions in adopting children with disabilities from the direst of circumstances, but the reality inside our walls was very different. It pains me to recall instances in which I witnessed siblings, some blind or physically disabled, dragged down a flight of stairs to be thrown into a bedroom or a closet, then having the door locked from the outside. She even shut my brother Thaddeus, paraplegic from polio, in an outdoor shed overnight as punishment for a minor transgression.

No mother is perfect, but the extent and frequency of this kind of thing is contradicted by other siblings. And after hearing nine weeks of testimony from both sides in the custody hearing, Judge Wilks found Farrow to be “kind and loving mother” and found that Allen was unfit to be a parent.

Most media sources claim my sister Tam died of “heart failure” at the age of 21. In fact, Tam struggled with depression for much of her life, a situation exacerbated by my mother refusing to get her help, insisting that Tam was just “moody.” One afternoon in 2000, after one final fight with Mia, which ended with my mother leaving the house, Tam committed suicide by overdosing on pills. My mother would tell others that the drug overdose was accidental, saying that Tam, who was blind, didn’t know which pills she was taking. But Tam had both an ironclad memory and sense of spatial recognition. And, of course, blindness didn’t impair her ability to count.

The details of Tam’s overdose and the fight with Mia that precipitated it were relayed directly to me by my brother Thaddeus, a first-hand witness. Tragically, he is no longer able to confirm this account. Just two years ago, Thaddeus also committed suicide by shooting himself in his car, less than 10 minutes from my mother’s house.

As someone with a family member who committed suicide, this kind of response really bothers me. Completely unfair and cruel to blame Mia for both of these deaths.

And why is it that all the trauma and dysfunction is dropped at the feet of Farrow? At minimum, Allen’s affair with Soon Yi did tremendous damage. And what if he really did molest Dylan and then falsely trash Farrow? This would be a nuclear explosion in any family, and especially so in a public case like this.

(Comments on electric train set)

His memory of the attic space does not mesh with other testimony at the time in several details.

Ironically, some of the details like this that she gave were initially thought to show she made it up, but were later shown to be correct. For example, she talked about “dead heads” in the attic. This was explicitly referenced by the Yale team as evidence she was making it up. But it was shown that Mia keep wig heads in the attic and Dylan called them “dead heads”. The Yale team also said that Dylan’s reference to “the magic hour” showed she was fantasizing, but it was later shown that this was a very common item of discussion in the household due to their filmmaking background.

Furthermore, one of the things that the Yale team was highly criticized for was the fact that they interviewed Dylan 13 times. Experts say that you should never interview a young victim like this more than 2-3 times. The problem is that the more you make a kid repeat something, they eventually think that the adults don’t like the answers you are giving so they start changing the story to see if that would make the adults happy and stop asking questions. Dylan said that after then 10th interview or so she started getting this vibe and may have changed some details. But we will never know too much because the Yale team destroyed their notes. In any case, the video accounts and initial stories are very consistent.

That was the start of her coaching, drilling, scripting, and rehearsing – in essence, brainwashing.

Another oft-repeated theme. But experts who reviewed the videotape testify it does not show evidence of coaching. In fact, they say that Farrow's questions to Dylan were not leading and were similar to the way abuse experts would have asked the questions. Simply asking the child to recount what happened.

The next morning, Woody was still at the house. Before he left, I briefly wandered into the living room and witnessed Dylan and Satchel sitting with him on the floor by a wall with a big picture window. The kids had a catalogue from a toy store and were marking off the toys they wanted him to bring back on his next visit. It was a cheerful, playful atmosphere – which would soon seem jarring compared to what Mia would allege happened less than a day before. Many years later, I once mentioned my recollection to Woody, and he said that he, too, remembered it quite vividly, telling me how he had told Satchel and Dylan to mark one or two toys each, but they had laughingly managed to check off virtually every toy in the catalogue. He remembers bringing it back to the city with him, with the intention of purchasing a few of the items they had checked. He told me he wound up holding onto that catalogue for years, having no idea that he would never see his daughter again.

Interestingly, it was only after Woody returned to the city that Mia would receive a phone call that would change our lives forever. It was from her friend Casey, who reported that her nanny Alison had witnessed Woody supposedly placing his head in Dylan’s lap on the sofa in the TV room.

Completely different description of what happened based on several witnesses who were adults at the time (Moses was 14). All three adults searched for Woody and Dylan but could not find them for a significant period of time. When Farrow came home she was immediately informed, but details about what happened came out over next few days as Dylan started talking about it.

Also, Dylan still being willing to be around Allen is not inconsistent with abuse cases involving family members. They don’t respond like adults.

That report put an end to any chance of criminal charges being brought against my father. A second, 14-month investigation by the New York State Department of Social Services, reached the same conclusion as Yale/New Haven: “No credible evidence was found that [Dylan Farrow] has been abused or maltreated.”

As I have mentioned before, this summary is a grossly inaccurate assessment of the overall expert opinion at the time. Conn prosecutors still believe to this day that Allen was guilty. Other experts in Conn and in NY believe abuse occurred.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I am going to split my answer into two posts. Responding to this first.

They feature a lot of evidence showing Allen's sexual obsession with young girls, including at least two affairs with teenagers, sex between older men and young girls as a constant theme in his movies, and a ton of information from his memoirs such as unpublished scripts, drafts of scripts, etc illustrating this obsession.

But let's dig into the "he couldn't be a child molester because there were no other incidents" line of reasoning. This is a constantly repeated defense by Allen apologists. Is that really significant? There are in fact many cases of molestation with a single victim. 90% of abuse cases involve a close family member or trusted friend. Maybe this was the only real opportunity Allen had. He didn't have any children and was rarely around children prior to his relationship with Farrow. And by all accounts, he was obsessed with Dylan from the start. After the incident, he probably didn't have many opportunities and was under hyper-scrutiny.

Furthermore, how do you know there aren't more victims? After studying this case and the Weinstein case I 100% understand why victims don't come forward in many cases involving powerful men. The personal cost is enormous. Once you say something it becomes the defining moment of your life and the backlash is overwhelming. If I had a daughter in such a circumstance I am not sure I would advise her to go public.

And oh yeah, Allen is known to joke about child molestation and having sex with a bunch of 12-yr-old girls.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/02/woody-allen-and-young-girls-a-history.html

[Katy Lied]

The Third Day. I loved it. I hated it. The first 3 episodes are basically The Wicker Man with a much more attractive star. That Jude Law gets better looking the older he gets, a phenomenon that also affects Diane Lane. It was stupid and compelling.

[Pelado]

The next morning, Woody was still at the house. Before he left, I briefly wandered into the living room and witnessed Dylan and Satchel sitting with him on the floor by a wall with a big picture window. The kids had a catalogue from a toy store and were marking off the toys they wanted him to bring back on his next visit. It was a cheerful, playful atmosphere – which would soon seem jarring compared to what Mia would allege happened less than a day before. Many years later, I once mentioned my recollection to Woody, and he said that he, too, remembered it quite vividly, telling me how he had told Satchel and Dylan to mark one or two toys each, but they had laughingly managed to check off virtually every toy in the catalogue. He remembers bringing it back to the city with him, with the intention of purchasing a few of the items they had checked. He told me he wound up holding onto that catalogue for years, having no idea that he would never see his daughter again.

Interestingly, it was only after Woody returned to the city that Mia would receive a phone call that would change our lives forever. It was from her friend Casey, who reported that her nanny Alison had witnessed Woody supposedly placing his head in Dylan’s lap on the sofa in the TV room.

The facts of this account, though shared by a Woody-sympathizer, seem like more evidence of an offense. The day after the alleged abuse, Woody brings a catalog and says "mark off the toys you want." That sounds kind of like someone trying to buy silence.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The facts of this account, though shared by a Woody-sympathizer, seem like more evidence of an offense. The day after the alleged abuse, Woody brings a catalog and says "mark off the toys you want." That sounds kind of like someone trying to buy silence.

According to Dylan, he was promising her gifts and a trip to Paris during the act.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Well, I am going to disagree about both “strong” and “well-written”. Let’s dissect some of his arguments:
...

Reasonable minds may disagree about the strength of Moses's arguments, but I must grieve about my own writing skills if you think his essay was poorly written... It's also evident you are more convinced of Woody's guilt than I am of his innocence, so I won't continue as a Woody advocate, although I found this story from a Woody-supporter and Curb Your Enthusiasm producer/director Robert Weide an interesting read.

[SeattleUte]

So now the neighbor's nanny who saw Woody with his head in Dylan's lap behind an unlocked door in a bedroom in which she freely entered is where they say this all started? She didn't say she sawWoody molesting her. Somewhat peculiar behavior, possibly mitigated by the fact that he was in a custody battle and hadn't seen her for months. But this nanny did not see him molesting her. Nor did she say that Dylan was naked from the waist down or that Woody was in her crotch. Allegedly someone else said Dylan hadn't been wearing underwear that day.

I thought Dylan said that it happened in the attic beside a train going round and round.

[SeattleUte]

The facts of this account, though shared by a Woody-sympathizer, seem like more evidence of an offense. The day after the alleged abuse, Woody brings a catalog and says "mark off the toys you want." That sounds kind of like someone trying to buy silence.

An estranged father trying to spoil his children isn't evidence he's molested them. Good grief.

[SeattleUte]

Nor are tasteless jokes evidence of anything.

Abut Soon Yi, the age of consent in New York is 17.