I hate Cougarboard

[Donuthole]

I don't feel anyone has the market cornered on the truth but I do really love the Church and will be racing back to the water when there's a little more tolerance for "the little guy ".

I think most gays would object to that characterization. You'd think, considering your stance on the matter, you'd be a little more careful when throwing out these kind of blanket statements.

[falafel]

Ironically you flee here from Cougarboard, yet this sentence is a perfect example of what so many of us hoped to escape when we fled Cougarboard.

You see, in order to properly effectuate a "not even . . . let alone" statement in an attempt to emphasize the extreme character of a situation, you must associate the lesser achievement with the "even" portion of the expression and the greater achievement with the "let alone" portion.

By associating the greater achievement (in this case, Seminary President) with the "even" portion, you leave open the possibility that the lesser achievement (in this case, Seminary Council) is actually achievable, thus forcing you to explain the non-achievement thereof with a subsequent "let alone" idiom.

However, when you associate the lesser achievement with the "even" portion, then you succeed in pointing out that the lesser achievement was not achievable, and you allow reason to explain the rest. For if the lesser achievement was not attainable, it follows logically, then, that the greater achievement was that much less so. Not that you wouldn't complete the expression (though you certainly aren't forced to, as you are with the incorrect version), but that your "let alone" follow-up is merely a reinforcement of your initial statement and not a furtherance of the explanation.

I just assumed that he was referring to Seminary Class President, which I also assumed was lesser in authority than the Grand Seminary Council.

[Donuthole]

I just assumed that he was referring to Seminary Class President, which I also assumed was lesser in authority than the Grand Seminary Council.

Well I guess we know what that makes you and Viking.

[TripletDaddy]

I don't feel anyone has the market cornered on the truth but I do really love the Church and will be racing back to the water when there's a little more tolerance for "the little guy".

There is nothing that the Church monitors and regulates more in this Earthly life than "the little guy." Once you are married I guess it doesnt matter so much.

[Hot Lunch]

There is nothing that the Church monitors and regulates more in this Earthly life than "the little guy." Once you are married I guess it doesnt matter so much.

Lol. I hated the fact that up until I was married, my bishop was always interested in what "the little guy" was doing. He seemed to always mention that he needed to be in the dark and would become stubborn and hard if a girl touched him.

[TripletDaddy]

Lol. I hated the fact that up until I was married, my bishop was always interested in what "the little guy" was doing. He seemed to always mention that he needed to be in the dark and would become stubborn and hard if a girl touched him.

I don't know about anyone else, but I found that some of the most seemingly pious BYU co-eds were always the most eager to lend a hand to keep "the little guy" down.

[RobinFinderson]

Interesting that the churchs stance on Gays makes the Book of Mormon and the doctrine of the church less true. Good call on those that left for that reason and that reason only, makes sense to me.

Any church that establishes the need for its existence on the idea of a Great Apostasy may find that idea returning to bite it on the butt. If a member finds the church's position on the treatment of gay people (or black people, or women) to be so far from one's personal sense of moral decency, then it may stand to reason for that person that a once-true-church may have fallen out of favor with God.

But I would guess that most people who would leave the church over this issue are probably cultural Mormons who don't have a strong sense of the unique truthfulness of the church. These people may enjoy the culture and fraternity of the church, but will simply find that being associated with an officially homophobic organization is too high a price to pay for membership in a social club.

[byu71]

Any church that establishes the need for its existence on the idea of a Great Apostasy may find that idea returning to bite it on the butt. If a member finds the church's position on the treatment of gay people (or black people, or women) to be so far from one's personal sense of moral decency, then it may stand to reason for that person that a once-true-church may have fallen out of favor with God.

But I would guess that most people who would leave the church over this issue are probably cultural Mormons who don't have a strong sense of the unique truthfulness of the church. These people may enjoy the culture and fraternity of the church, but will simply find that being associated with an officially homophobic organization to be too high a price to pay for membership in a social club.

So let me get this straight. If I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman, that makes me a homophobe? Is there more to it and more that needs to be examined about my actions and thoughts or does it just follow that if I don't agree with the gay agenda, I am a homophobe.

[Indy Coug]

I don't feel anyone has the market cornered on the truth but I do really love the Church and will be racing back to the water when there's a little more tolerance for "the little guy".

Or when you can keep it in your pants? Stop the charade.

[RobinFinderson]

So let me get this straight. If I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman, that makes me a homophobe? Is there more to it and more that needs to be examined about my actions and thoughts or does it just follow that if I don't agree with the gay agenda, I am a homophobe.

If you believe the government should invent rights for heterosexuals and not extend those exact same rights to gay people, then yes, you are a homophobe. This is a kind of discrimination based on sexual identity, and such discrimination is at the very root of contemporary usage of the word 'homophobia.'

You might successfully argue that the word 'homophobic' ought not to be used, because it is overly prejudicial, and lacks the precision necessary to distinguish between a principled position against homosexual behavior and an irrational hatred/fear/aversion of homosexual behavior, but as the word is commonly used in contemporary speech, the LDS church and many of its members are 'officially homophobic.' The church and its members have a lot to consider as they continue to navigate these rocky waters.

[byu71]

If you believe the government should invent rights for heterosexuals and not extend those exact same rights to gay people, then yes, you are a homophobe. This is a kind of discrimination based on sexual identity, and such discrimination is at the very root of contemporary usage of the word 'homophobia.'

You might successfully argue that the word 'homophobic' ought not to be used, because it is overly prejudicial, and lacks the precision necessary to distinguish between a principled position against homosexual behavior and an irrational hatred/fear/aversion of homosexual behavior, but as the word is commonly used in contemporary speech, the LDS church and many of its members are 'officially homophobic.' The church and its members have a lot to consider as they continue to navigate these rocky waters.

Yea, if you belong to a society, contemporary speech becomes the definition by which one must evaluate one's self. I may hold a position that I consider principled, but if the crowd yells louder and longer, I had better hold my piece or face being labeled that which I am not.

[RobinFinderson]

Yea, if you belong to a society, contemporary speech becomes the definition by which one must evaluate one's self. I may hold a position that I consider principled, but if the crowd yells louder and longer, I had better hold my piece or face being labeled that which I am not.

It might be more accurate to say, to avoid getting bogged down with definitions, that when one belongs to a society, one's status will typically rise or fall according to one's harmony with social values. But social values change over time. Yesterday it may have been a social plus to be against gay marriage. I doubt that will be the case ten years from now. Whatever word one chooses to describe the church's official position on gay marriage, or its history and contemporary treatment of homosexual men and women, in and out of the church, the word matters less than the degree to which those views harmonize with popular social morality.

[il Padrino Ute]

It might be more accurate to say, to avoid getting bogged down with definitions, that when one belongs to a society, one's status will typically rise or fall according to one's harmony with social values. But social values change over time. Yesterday it may have been a social plus to be against gay marriage. I doubt that will be the case ten years from now. Whatever word one chooses to describe the church's official position on gay marriage, or its history and contemporary treatment of homosexual men and women, in and out of the church, the word matters less than the degree to which those views harmonize with popular social morality.

To hell with society's values. One should be principled enough to take a stand and stick with it. What's right for me, may not be right for the rest of society, but as long as I am not hurting anyone, society should accept that I am who and how I am.

[RobinFinderson]

To hell with society's values. One should be principled enough to take a stand and stick with it. What's right for me, may not be right for the rest of society, but as long as I am not hurting anyone, society should accept that I am who and how I am.

Well, IPU, I basically agree with you here. Stick to your values and see where they take you. I like the way Viking put it:

If God is going to punish me for standing up for basic human dignity, then I'd rather go to hell.

[il Padrino Ute]

Well, IPU, I basically agree with you here. Stick to your values and see where they take you. I like the way Viking put it:

Hey! We can agree on somethings.

How 'bout that?