BYU, Utah to the PAC-12

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

At the risk of hijacking the SU-DDD debate (which I am enjoying immensely), can someone please explain to me why the PAC-10 would want to expand to 12 teams?

Dude, here is a post I put in a different thread about why the non-LA based schools are opposed to expansion.

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread...0182#post10182

[SeattleUte]

I didnt say that. I ranked the PAC schools and put the California schools ahead of the others. If you rank all 10, there have to be winners and losers.

You sent me a link to med schools and cited that UW has a nice ranking. I dont even need links to know that the 4 California law schools and MBA programs are ahead of all the other PAC schools.

You keep bringing up academics. I keep saying that academics would not prevent BYU or Utah from being admitted. Maybe prevent Fresno State, but not BYU or Utah, as evidenced by the admission of the Arizona schools.

Compare the academics at the Arizona schools, WSU, OSU, and Oregon with BYU and Utah. And I am talking all around academics, not the fact that Oregon might have the premiere woodsmanship and logging program in the country. You linked university rankings previously and that linked showed that BYU and Utah ranks favorably compared to several current PAC10 schools.

Ultimately it's about culture. If BYU followed my ten point plan, which includes:

removing all LDS church GA's from the board of trustees, installing a secular board,

erecting a fire wall between the LDS church and BYU governance,

eliminating dependence on the mother church for any funding and raising a respectable endowment,

eliminating the Honor Code and allowing gay student organizations,

begin accepting federal grants and contracts for research,

and adopting a formal policy of academic freedom,

BYU would be a strong candidate for Pac 10 admission. This is the Notre Dame and Georgetown model. I wish that would happen, because as I've said Utah only lacks a strong partner for admission, in my opinion.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ultimately it's about culture. If BYU followed my ten point plan, which includes:

...

begin accepting federal grants and contracts for research,

.....

Just nitpicking a bit, but BYU does in fact accept federal research money. That is a common misconception.

[SeattleUte]

Just nitpicking a bit, but BYU does in fact accept federal research money. That is a common misconception.

I know, but does it accept hundreds of millions of dollars like Utah? Last I checked it was around $10 million. If it's going to fudge on its reputed independence from government, why not go whole hog? I don't understand.

[pelagius]

You said Pac 10 academics was a California aberration. It's not. The Pac 10 top to bottom is not the Ivy League, but the Pac 10 is the second strongest conference in the country academically. It cares a lot about its academic image and all of the Pac 10 schools are expected to fit a certain type. Utah fits that model, BYU doesn't; BYU is way out there in that respect. The Big 10 and the Big East are similar, but the Pac 10 regards itself as really shining brightest in this respect, i.e., outstanding academics and outstanding sports.

Not if you include all the universities that have been part of the Big 10. Then the Big 10 is clearly better.

[CJF]

Ultimately it's about culture. If BYU followed my ten point plan, which includes:

removing all LDS church GA's from the board of trustees, installing a secular board,

erecting a fire wall between the LDS church and BYU governance,

eliminating dependence on the mother church for any funding and raising a respectable endowment,

eliminating the Honor Code and allowing gay student organizations,

begin accepting federal grants and contracts for research,

and adopting a formal policy of academic freedom,

BYU would be a strong candidate for Pac 10 admission. This is the Notre Dame and Georgetown model. I wish that would happen, because as I've said Utah only lacks a strong partner for admission, in my opinion.

Did you learn to debate from exUte?

[TripletDaddy]

Not if you include all the universities that have been part of the Big 10. Then the Big 10 is clearly better.

I agree! Stay at OSU!

[pelagius]

I agree! Stay at OSU!

Only if said school rejoins the conference. I have mentioned this a few times in my negotations with OSU. So far, no luck, but I remain hopeful.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I know, but does it accept hundreds of millions of dollars like Utah? Last I checked it was around $10 million. If it's going to fudge on its reputed independence from government, why not go whole hog? I don't understand.

BYU has never claimed "independence from government". It's not really a case of BYU turning federal money away, as much as not chasing it more. It is a matter of mission. The Board of Trustees (i.e., top-level church leaders) have decided that BYU's mission is to be a top-notch undergraduate teaching institution with a few areas of excellence in graduate programs. Given the fact that BYU is largely supported by tithing donations, they feel that this is the most appropriate strategy since it allows the BYU experience to be available to as many church members as possible.

The funding is $15-25M per year if I recall correctly. Chump change.

Personally, I would love to see BYU expand its graduate research programs, but I am not in charge.

[SeattleUte]

BYU has never claimed "independence from government". It's not really a case of BYU turning federal money away, as much as not chasing it more. It is a matter of mission. The Board of Trustees (i.e., top-level church leaders) have decided that BYU's mission is to be a top-notch undergraduate teaching institution with a few areas of excellence in graduate programs. Given the fact that BYU is largely supported by tithing donations, they feel that this is the most appropriate strategy since it allows the BYU experience to be available to as many church members as possible.

The funding is $15-25M per year if I recall correctly. Chump change.

Personally, I would love to see BYU expand its graduate research programs, but I am not in charge.

BYU should raise tuition, pursue federal money, build an endowment. Of course it shoud reject tithing funds as well as governance by those who old the pruse strings.

[SeattleUte]

Not if you include all the universities that have been part of the Big 10. Then the Big 10 is clearly better.

They are very close if not comparable today. Who are you talking about? University of Chicago?

[pelagius]

They are very close if not comparable today. Who are you talking about? University of Chicago?

Ya the Monsters of the Midway, they left the conference in 46 but I think they still have the contractual right to rejoin the conference (could be wrong about that but I think that's right).

[Jeff Lebowski]

BYU should raise tuition, pursue federal money, build an endowment. Of course it shoud reject tithing funds as well as governance by those who old the pruse strings.

That would require those who are currently in charge to sever the ties and walk away. The same organization that built the university. It would also fundamentally change the mission. Not bloody likely.

Either way, this wouldn't happen unless there was a strong push for such a change from the university's constituents (faculty, students, alumni, church members, etc.). That's not happening.

[Mormon Red Death]

In the case of the Pac, a championship game is redundant. All the teams already play each other. What is the point of replaying a game every year?

The difference between the PAC and B12 and SEC is that all the teams don't play each other.

It would be interesting to hear someone articulate a good reason in favor of a championship game when all the teams already play each other. Does the MWC need a championship game? What for?

There are 15 - 20 million reasons why a championship game makes sense.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

There are 15 - 20 million reasons why a championship game makes sense.

Unless that is per school, that is not anywhere near a value at what each school would be giving up to have a fake champion crowned in football.