Deadspin takes on the Honor Code

[Maximus]

Black non-LDS football players are 200 times more likely to be kicked out of school than a white LDS non-athlete. Is it realistic to think a black non-LDS football player is 200 times more likely to break the Honor Code than a white LDS non-athlete?

Do you have evidence the honor code office targets black players more than whites and/or determines whether or not to be kicked out based on race?

[YOhio]

One of these two types of sexual activities is more likely to get you busted, i.e. sleeping with your fiance/girlfriend is less risky in HC terms than having CJ Ah You videotape you and your 6 best friends having at it with a member of the track team.

And it doesn't even have to be CJ Ah You. It's always been my policy that when the video camera is on, the orgy is off.

[wuapinmon]

I'm more than a little pissed that no one commented on those videos I linked. The last one is solid gold.

[YOhio]

I'm more than a little pissed that no one commented on those videos I linked. The last one is solid gold.

I didn't bother to look at them. I was more interested in the discussion of the honor code and Deadspin article. Happy now?

[oxcoug]

Black non-LDS football players are 200 times more likely to be kicked out of school than a white LDS non-athlete. Is it realistic to think a black non-LDS football player is 200 times more likely to break the Honor Code than a white LDS non-athlete?

Yes and no.

The "200x" figure isn't really meaningful given the small sample as one quick aside. And your comparison of the black non-LDS athlete to the "white LDS non-athlete" also isn't meaningful given that the LDS non-athletes at BYU are almost exclusively white.

A more meaningful comparison if you want to comment on RACE wld be to compare LDS black athletes with non-LDS black athletes. And there's a growing number (Buckner, Bradley, Hadley, KVN, Davies) in the category.

But back to the 200x - when you factor that more than half of BYU's black athletes in the past two decades have been JC guys who came through BYU to play their sport and, for the most part, do nothing else - no commit to or prior initiation in LDS culture or religion. In that context an exponentially huge difference in the probability of an infraction - or at least of infractions that don't get sorted through channels first - is totally possible.

BTW - I agree that it should be reformed. The HC SHOULD find someway to acknowledge differences in the backgrounds of the students.

[wuapinmon]

I didn't bother to look at them. I was more interested in the discussion of the honor code and Deadspin article. Happy now?

Dude, abstinence is awesome.

[myboynoah]

The issue in my view comes down to culture, LDS vs. non-LDS, with a level of racism that still exists in society as a whole.

LDS kids know the system, they grew up with it and for the most part endorse the restrictions found in the Honor Code. It's not that difficult for them to live that life because they're already doing it. They are also probably supportive of the stridency with which LDS culture views obedience to commandments: these are things to follow to the letter of the law. They are also familiar with and have internalized LDS views and practices when it comes to repentance and forgiveness. They have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a “confessionable” offense and have had a series of interviews with ecclesiastical leaders where such things have been discussed. All have or had an acquaintance who has messed up and had to avail themselves of some time with an ecclesiastical leader to resolve some misstep. They know the drill:

• The ecclesiastical leader is there to help
• Be humble
• Confess all and be forthcoming with follow up questions
• Express profound regret and ask forgiveness
• Promise to change behavior
• Agree to make restitution where possible
• Agree to follow up action and counseling

They may not be comfortable with it all, but at least they’ve been exposed to the process. So when they have an Honor Code issue and are called in to talk with the overseers, things have a familiar feel and they probably respond in a way similar to how they would respond to an ecclesiastical leader. Even the traditional Mormon architecture (painted cinderblock) shouts familiarity to them.

The same goes for those who work in Honor Code oversight. They probably have certain expectations from students when they are called in and the LDS students for the most part probably meet those expectations. They are humble, they come clean, they beg forgiveness, they promise to do better, and maybe even shed some tears. The overseer’s expectations are met and he/she is probably more inclined to cooperate to find a workable, less punitive solution in the case of serious infractions. The student in turn responds with agreement to comply with the Honor Code Office’s determination. This fits very well into everyone’s paradigm.

But, what happens with the non-LDS student? No doubt these students come to BYU with very different views on obedience, repentance, forgiveness, grace, ecclesiastical authority, etc. They’re certainly not familiar with the LDS repentance process and the role the ecclesiastical leader plays. I suspect they equate Honor Code oversight with law enforcement (painted cinderblock), and respond accordingly, which is probably the worst thing they could do. The Honor Code overseer is expecting humility and cooperation but will likely find suspicion, defiance, and denial.

This is a clash of cultures. Race plays its part because I doubt the Honor Code overseers have any extended experience outside of white Mormon culture. I could be wrong on that. But I don’t think race is the overriding reason for these problems. It’s good to hear that the Athletic Department has hired a chaplain. I also think Coach Bronco understands the culture clash and takes steps to mitigate the potential damage by doing his own form of enforcement that keeps the Honor Code Officer out of it. At least that’s my hope.

[byu71]

The issue in my view comes down to culture, LDS vs. non-LDS, with a level of racism that still exists in society as a whole.

LDS kids know the system, they grew up with it and for the most part endorse the restrictions found in the Honor Code. It's not that difficult for them to live that life because they're already doing it. They are also probably supportive of the stridency with which LDS culture views obedience to commandments: these are things to follow to the letter of the law. They are also familiar with and have internalized LDS views and practices when it comes to repentance and forgiveness. They have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a “confessionable” offense and have had a series of interviews with ecclesiastical leaders where such things have been discussed. All have or had an acquaintance who has messed up and had to avail themselves of some time with an ecclesiastical leader to resolve some misstep. They know the drill:

• The ecclesiastical leader is there to help
• Be humble
• Confess all and be forthcoming with follow up questions
• Express profound regret and ask forgiveness
• Promise to change behavior
• Agree to make restitution where possible
• Agree to follow up action and counseling

They may not be comfortable with it all, but at least they’ve been exposed to the process. So when they have an Honor Code issue and are called in to talk with the overseers, things have a familiar feel and they probably respond in a way similar to how they would respond to an ecclesiastical leader. Even the traditional Mormon architecture (painted cinderblock) shouts familiarity to them.

The same goes for those who work in Honor Code oversight. They probably have certain expectations from students when they are called in and the LDS students for the most part probably meet those expectations. They are humble, they come clean, they beg forgiveness, they promise to do better, and maybe even shed some tears. The overseer’s expectations are met and he/she is probably more inclined to cooperate to find a workable, less punitive solution in the case of serious infractions. The student in turn responds with agreement to comply with the Honor Code Office’s determination. This fits very well into everyone’s paradigm.

But, what happens with the non-LDS student? No doubt these students come to BYU with very different views on obedience, repentance, forgiveness, grace, ecclesiastical authority, etc. They’re certainly not familiar with the LDS repentance process and the role the ecclesiastical leader plays. I suspect they equate Honor Code oversight with law enforcement (painted cinderblock), and respond accordingly, which is probably the worst thing they could do. The Honor Code overseer is expecting humility and cooperation but will likely find suspicion, defiance, and denial.

This is a clash of cultures. Race plays its part because I doubt the Honor Code overseers have any extended experience outside of white Mormon culture. I could be wrong on that. But I don’t think race is the overriding reason for these problems. It’s good to hear that the Athletic Department has hired a chaplain. I also think Coach Bronco understands the culture clash and takes steps to mitigate the potential damage by doing his own form of enforcement that keeps the Honor Code Officer out of it. At least that’s my hope.

You make some excellent points. I usually don't read posts that long, but I did finish yours.

That being said, the last two HC problems I remember were LDS and in the minority classification. You need to add some thoughts on "white LDS".

[myboynoah]

You make some excellent points. I usually don't read posts that long, but I did finish yours.

That being said, the last two HC problems I remember were LDS and in the minority classification. You need to add some thoughts on "white LDS".

Yeah, I considered breaking it up into 4-5 shorter installments for your benefit, but then I thought, "To hell with it."

I assume you're talking about Unga and Davies? I think they fit the LDS mold pretty well. Unga isn't hating on BYU and tried to facilitate a return to play; the timing didn't work out. Davies appears compliant and will hopefully be back with the team in December. Both are loved by the fans.

No doubt if they had been non-LDS they would have been more inclinded to say "screw this" and would have moved on.

[jay santos]

Yes and no.

The "200x" figure isn't really meaningful given the small sample as one quick aside. And your comparison of the black non-LDS athlete to the "white LDS non-athlete" also isn't meaningful given that the LDS non-athletes at BYU are almost exclusively white.

A more meaningful comparison if you want to comment on RACE wld be to compare LDS black athletes with non-LDS black athletes. And there's a growing number (Buckner, Bradley, Hadley, KVN, Davies) in the category.

But back to the 200x - when you factor that more than half of BYU's black athletes in the past two decades have been JC guys who came through BYU to play their sport and, for the most part, do nothing else - no commit to or prior initiation in LDS culture or religion. In that context an exponentially huge difference in the probability of an infraction - or at least of infractions that don't get sorted through channels first - is totally possible.

BTW - I agree that it should be reformed. The HC SHOULD find someway to acknowledge differences in the backgrounds of the students.

I've made a lot of posts on the subject. Trust me when I say i've thought through the statistical data issues.

[Katy Lied]

Exactly how black is Davies? Kid was raised in lily livered Provo in a white household.

Ironic that we keep labeling him black strictly because of his skin color and no other reason.

[Shaka]

Bryan Kehl is going to be on 1280 at 8am to discuss this honor code issue with Hans.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Even If you put it that way, he is still twice as black as one Mr. Barack Obama.

[NorthwestUteFan]

And that is not meant to be a pejorative.

Sorry, trying to type on my phone...

[jay santos]

Do you have evidence the honor code office targets black players more than whites and/or determines whether or not to be kicked out based on race?

They target them through the way they administer their policy. It doesn't matter if they have a team of people snooping through black athletes' personal lives or they put a policy in place that makes non-Honor Code Office solutions possible for everyone but high profile non-LDS athletes.