Alright, let's hear your Heaps assessments

[jay santos]

Kind of stunning to process this but -

Heaps had a better PER against Utah on Saturday than Hall had in any one of his three games against Utah. Because we ended up winning 2 of the 3 BYU fans largely forget that Max really did suck in every game against Utah. This is a guy who completed 62% of his passes on his career who only managed to complete 50% in 1 of 3 games - and in that one he threw 5 INTs.

The reality is - and heaven knows I love Mad Max - Max shat himself Wynn-style in all of his games against Utah. He threw one truly great pass last year.

He played hard and gritty and made runs and did the extra stuff to compensate but he was out of his element in all three games against Utah.

Heaps looked more poised on Saturday as a true frosh against Utah than Max did as a Senior.

I won't comment on Hall's first two games, but comparing last year vs Heaps this year, I completely disagree. Hall's stats weren't good last year, but nothing was open. Hall played a great game with a lot of poise. Heaps had a good game this year, but the two performances can't be compared on stats alone.

[oxcoug]

All true, however, these stats were not achieved in a vacuum. Utah's secondary was not nearly as good in 2010 as they were in 2007-2009. Max faced a significantly better defense in each of his 3 games.

That's a fair statement. Still - I think it's more than just stats, Heaps showed more poise than Max did as well, though that's obviously hard to measure.

(and of course you can argue that he had more poise because the D wasn't putting as much pressure on him).

[Sizzle]

All true, however, these stats were not achieved in a vacuum. Utah's secondary was not nearly as good in 2010 as they were in 2007-2009. Max faced a significantly better defense in each of his 3 games.

Exactly. This is the problem looking at stats alone in a vacuum.

[MarkGrace]

Kind of stunning to process this but -

Heaps had a better PER against Utah on Saturday than Hall had in any one of his three games against Utah. Because we ended up winning 2 of the 3 BYU fans largely forget that Max really did suck in every game against Utah. This is a guy who completed 62% of his passes on his career who only managed to complete 50% in 1 of 3 games - and in that one he threw 5 INTs.

The reality is - and heaven knows I love Mad Max - Max shat himself Wynn-style in all of his games against Utah. He threw one truly great pass last year.

He played hard and gritty and made runs and did the extra stuff to compensate but he was out of his element in all three games against Utah.

Heaps looked more poised on Saturday as a true frosh against Utah than Max did as a Senior.

Someone finally adresses what was mentioned in this first post of this thread!

[Indy Coug]

All true, however, these stats were not achieved in a vacuum. Utah's secondary was not nearly as good in 2010 as they were in 2007-2009. Max faced a significantly better defense in each of his 3 games.

[Sizzle]

That's a fair statement. Still - I think it's more than just stats, Heaps showed more poise than Max did as well, though that's obviously hard to measure.

(and of course you can argue that he had more poise because the D wasn't putting as much pressure on him).

How did Heaps show more poise than Max did? Max's first game against Utah as a Sophomore he led a last minute TD drive completing some crazy passes. The 2007 Utah defense was much better than the 2010 version, especially in the secondary and linebackers.

Heaps had a fantastic game, but he was not perfect. His INT was a poorly thrown ball that should have been a TD. The fumble with Juice and Kariya Heaps knew the play wasn't right, tried to hurry to not get a delay of game penalty instead of calling a timeout and we fumbled. Those were both not very poised plays and freshmen mistakes. The thing I like about Heaps is he seems to learn very quickly and not make the same mistake again (he later called a timeout in a similar situation instead of trying to rush the play). I think Heaps has as much upside as any QB at BYU in the last 20 years if not longer, but it's not like he is the most poised QB we've seen. He's still a freshman and still makes mistakes. The training wheels have come off a bit and Cougar fans are (rightfully, IMO) excited about his future. But he hasn't been perfect. And I've been a huge Heaps supporter from the get go.

[Donuthole]

All true, however, these stats were not achieved in a vacuum. Utah's secondary was not nearly as good in 2010 as they were in 2007-2009. Max faced a significantly better defense in each of his 3 games.

And Max had significantly better offensive options than Heaps. If Ashworth and Hoffman don't combine for four drops, Heaps probably wins that game going away. Max was handing off to the best RB in BYU history, throwing to the best WR in BYU history, and throwing to the best TE in BYU history. The dropoff between Max's supporting cast and Heaps' supporting cast is significantly greater than the dropoff between the 09 Utah defense and the 10 Utah secondary.

[oxcoug]

So since we're diving into the context -

Hall also got to play two of his three games w/ BYU's best WR ever, all three of them with BYU's all time leading pass catcher in Pitta and all three with BYU's all-time leading rusher. He also got to play all three on 10-win non-dysfunctional teams that were used to winning. And 2 of his 3 were played at home.

[oxcoug]

And Max had significantly better offensive options than Heaps. If Ashworth and Hoffman don't combine for four drops, Heaps probably wins that game going away. Max was handing off to the best RB in BYU history, throwing to the best WR in BYU history, and throwing to the best TE in BYU history. The dropoff between Max's supporting cast and Heaps' supporting cast is significantly greater than the dropoff between the 09 Utah defense and the 10 Utah secondary.

Ohh um - guess you kind of already made this point. Word.

[oxcoug]

How did Heaps show more poise than Max did? Max's first game against Utah as a Sophomore he led a last minute TD drive completing some crazy passes. The 2007 Utah defense was much better than the 2010 version, especially in the secondary and linebackers.

Heaps had a fantastic game, but he was not perfect. His INT was a poorly thrown ball that should have been a TD. The fumble with Juice and Kariya Heaps knew the play wasn't right, tried to hurry to not get a delay of game penalty instead of calling a timeout and we fumbled. Those were both not very poised plays and freshmen mistakes. The thing I like about Heaps is he seems to learn very quickly and not make the same mistake again (he later called a timeout in a similar situation instead of trying to rush the play). I think Heaps has as much upside as any QB at BYU in the last 20 years if not longer, but it's not like he is the most poised QB we've seen. He's still a freshman and still makes mistakes. The training wheels have come off a bit and Cougar fans are (rightfully, IMO) excited about his future. But he hasn't been perfect. And I've been a huge Heaps supporter from the get go.

Of course I'm talking impressionistic stuff here - but I always felt like Utah was in Max's head. I can think of very few examples of him keeping his head, keeping his eyes up and making big plays with throws downfield after a play broke down vs Utah (except 4th and 18) - something we saw Jake do at least a couple of times. Granted, again - he was facing tighter coverages, but I don't think he was composed in any of his games against Utah.

[Sizzle]

Of course I'm talking impressionistic stuff here - but I always felt like Utah was in Max's head. I can think of very few examples of him keeping his head, keeping his eyes up and making big plays with throws downfield after a play broke down vs Utah (except 4th and 18) - something we saw Jake do at least a couple of times. Granted, again - he was facing tighter coverages, but I don't think he was composed in any of his games against Utah.

I think a lot of that is due to Utah not being able to put together as complex of coverage and blitzing schemes with their defense being down this year.

I don't think I saw a single zone blitz on Saturday from Utah, things that really gave Max fits when he played against them previously (thinking specifically to the 2008 game). In fact, I think for the first time in a long time in the rivalry, BYU's defensive planning and execution was more complex than Utah's and it showed in how confused Wynn appeared to be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked about Heaps. But if I had my choice to play the rivalry game again this Saturday and you gave me the choice of Freshman Jake Heaps and Senior Max Hall, I know the guy I'm rolling with and I don't have a seconds worth of hesitation. And in no way, shape or form is that meant as a diss on Jake.

[oxcoug]

I think a lot of that is due to Utah not being able to put together as complex of coverage and blitzing schemes with their defense being down this year.

I don't think I saw a single zone blitz on Saturday from Utah, things that really gave Max fits when he played against them previously (thinking specifically to the 2008 game). In fact, I think for the first time in a long time in the rivalry, BYU's defensive planning and execution was more complex than Utah's and it showed in how confused Wynn appeared to be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked about Heaps. But if I had my choice to play the rivalry game again this Saturday and you gave me the choice of Freshman Jake Heaps and Senior Max Hall, I know the guy I'm rolling with and I don't have a seconds worth of hesitation. And in no way, shape or form is that meant as a diss on Jake.

I'd second that. I'm not saying Frosh Heaps is better than Senior Hall - only that the contrast in their games vs Utah is interesting.

[Blueintheface]

I don't think I saw a single zone blitz on Saturday from Utah, things that really gave Max fits when he played against them previously (thinking specifically to the 2008 game)

Incidentally, I was listening to 1280 on Saturday morning and heard Gunther say that when asked, Kruger admitted that he had free-lanced on the interception he got on Max. He had stunted on the play, got stoned at the point, and did what great players do and looked at the QB's eyes. Doesn't diminish your point at all as they were running a lot more zone blitzes as you mentioned but I thought that was interesting.

[Sizzle]

Incidentally, I was listening to 1280 on Saturday morning and heard Gunther say that when asked, Kruger admitted that he had free-lanced on the interception he got on Max. He had stunted on the play, got stoned at the point, and did what great players do and looked at the QB's eyes. Doesn't diminish your point at all as they were running a lot more zone blitzes as you mentioned but I thought that was interesting.

Interesting.

If anything it highlights the difference between the level of talent and abilities on the 2008 Utah defense compared to the 2010 version.

[KillerDog]

IIRC, Max had an injured shoulder when he played in the U of U game as a Soph. He was throwing ducks all day. I think another difference between the two is what they were asked to do. Hall was asked to win the game, Heaps was asked not to lose the game. Finally, I think Heaps has a much better arm than Hall and is able to force Utah to play him more honestly on defense. Some things seem to be to his favor and some in favor of Max. Ultimately, Heaps hasn't done shit yet as a player. When he starts to show the kind of stats and outcomes that Max showed, we can compare them. Not before.

One more thing, Jake Heaps season at this point is not very impressive. Before we annoint him in oil and raise him up on high, I'd like him to do more than throw a few balls that are impressive. At this point he has neither wins nor stats to recommend him. http://cougarstats.com/lists/passingseason.html He's more Bob Jensen than Ty Detmer.