Remembering Scott Norberg

[PaloAltoCougar]

,,, But here's the thing: When I lived in Phoenix, I literally believe it was a safer place because of Joe Arpaio.

... Arpaio's tough, controversial justice, in my opinion, is effective--even if it ruffles the feathers of out-of-staters without connections to Maricopa County...and even if it makes the criminals uncomfortable....

Kublai Khan imposed the death penalty for virtually any crime or transgression, and reduced the crime rate of the Mongolian Empire to essentially zero.

[Green Monstah]

Kublai Khan imposed the death penalty for virtually any crime or transgression, and reduced the crime rate of the Mongolian Empire to essentially zero.

Which is an extreme example, and, quite unverifiable.

Luckily, there is a lot of space between the Khan's and anarchy.

[Clark Addison]

Kublai Khan imposed the death penalty for virtually any crime or transgression, and reduced the crime rate of the Mongolian Empire to essentially zero.

But on the plus side, you had that nice pleasure-dome.

[SeattleUte]

Don't be ridiculous.

All of you are employing hyperbole....if that makes you feel better, that is fine.

But here's the thing: When I lived in Phoenix, I literally believe it was a safer place because of Joe Arpaio. Furthermore, he transformed jail from an air-conditioned haven to a place that actually sucked. No porn. No smokes. Oh, and why not take those criminals out and have them work instead of sucking even more from society (in the form of resources) than they already have.

Furthermore, you've yet to connect Joe Arpaio to the tragic death of Scott Norberg in a meaningful way. At the very most, he was negligent in not providing training on how to handle an inmate who was violent (in fact, he was booked for, among other things, hitting a police officer) and continuously spit on the jail guards. It was a senseless death in that all they had to do was put some sort of mask (like a surgeon's mask) over his mouth so he could spit upon himself. Prison Guards aren't babysitters..."time out" isn't going to work.

So, SeattleUte, you can call me a Nazi all you want, but Arpaio's tough, controversial justice, in my opinion, is effective--even if it ruffles the feathers of out-of-staters without connections to Maricopa County...and even if it makes the criminals uncomfortable.

You insult your own intelligence with the Nazi comparison. Your retort, not doubt will be something along the lines of "you insult your own intelligence by supporting Joe Arpaio." But reasonable minds often differ...particularly over controversial figures like Arpaio.

You spoke volumes about yourself when you said Norberg was better off dead. I suppose you think he's chilling out in the spirit world, cleaning up his act. lol

The excesses of ancient Chinese emperors may be imperfectly documented, but not police state excesses over the last century. Are you one of those who denies the Holocaust happened? I'm betting yes you are.

[SeattleUte]

Which is an extreme example, and, quite unverifiable.

Luckily, there is a lot of space between the Khan's and anarchy.

Your belief that Kublai Khan's police state "is an extreme example" speaks volumes about you. Holy shit. Have you every heard of Stalin? You're ignorant.

[SeattleUte]

Which is an extreme example, and, quite unverifiable.

Luckily, there is a lot of space between the Khan's and anarchy.

You may want to bone up on the Saudi royal government's or Iran's excesses today.

[Green Monstah]

You spoke volumes about yourself when you said Norberg was better off dead. I suppose you think he's chilling out in the spirit world, cleaning up his act. lol

The excesses of ancient Chinese emperors may be imperfectly documented, but not police state excesses over the last century. Are you one of those who denies the Holocaust happened? I'm betting yes you are.

I think I clarified my statement re: being better off dead. It's a matter of faith, and if you don't share it, I won't begrudge you. I do, however, think that Norberg is at peace right now, which is something his life was devoid of in the years and months prior to his death. What ever happened to your religion of kindness?? haha.

Where are you taking this argument...furthermore, what the hell are you talking about? Not only do I believe the holocaust occurred, I spent a good portion of my Junior year of college reading every word written by Holocaust survivor Primo Levi (Survival in Auschwitz literally changed my life).

I'm not saying that there are no police abuses. This may surprise you, but I actually think we've watered down the Fourth Amendment to the point that it has no real meaning anymore. I wouldn't and don't support warrantless searches or police brutality. I support due process and fair trials. But, if someone is breaking the law and has broken the law, I have no problem with making their life uncomfortable, particularly if they continue to be recalcitrant and leech on society.

Tragic as the Norberg story is, I have come to a few conclusions:

1. It was preventable by the jail guards and it was preventable by Norberg.

2. It is a tragedy that could have been avoided with better training.

3. Joe Arpaio is at most negligent for failure to provide such training.

Reasonable conclusions, I believe.

[Green Monstah]

Your belief that Kublai Khan's police state "is an extreme example" speaks volumes about you. Holy shit. Have you every heard of Stalin? You're ignorant.

What are you talking about? Instant death for a small crime is not extreme?

Maybe you missed my point....putting Kublai Khan and Joe Arpaio in the same basket is a false analogy....Arpaio fits somewhere between Khan and Anarchy (and there are many levels in between). I'll be sure to water things down for you in the future.

[Green Monstah]

You may want to bone up on the Saudi royal government's or Iran's excesses today.

I'm aware of Saudi Arabia's policies (didn't they just try to execute a Lebonese man who was a "fortune teller" for predicting the future). But that's not the point. You're essentially trying to project me as someone and something I'm not, which boils down--in the end-- to namecalling. We're arguing a discreet point and you've somehow turned this into a discourse on Nazism and middle eastern constitutional law. Stay on point or go somewhere else to play...and furthermore, READ WHAT I SAY, not what you think I'm saying.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Arpaio is complicit for creating a climate where a prisoner's life has almost no value. A climate where your average citizens cheer on abuses and look the other way on deaths like this because his shenanigans somehow make them feel safer.

[Green Monstah]

Arpaio is complicit for creating a climate where a prisoner's life has almost no value. A climate where your average citizens cheer on abuses and look the other way on deaths like this because his shenanigans somehow make them feel safer.

It's easy to point fingers at jail and prison personnel who risk their lives everyday watching over the very bottom of our society. If I work in a prison and someone threatens me, I drop the hammer (or I end up beaten or dead). There may not be a more dog eat dog world than inside of prisons and jails.

My biggest beef with Arpaio is not how he treats convicted prisoners, but how he treats those who are awaiting trial (like Norberg). Until a judge or jury says guilty, they should be treated humanely (unless they attack jail personnel). I don't know what provoked the Norberg mess, but considering he had attacked a police officer hours before, I'm disinclined to believe the whole incident started unprovoked.

[KillerDog]

Don't be ridiculous.

All of you are employing hyperbole....if that makes you feel better, that is fine.

But here's the thing: When I lived in Phoenix, I literally believe it was a safer place because of Joe Arpaio. Furthermore, he transformed jail from an air-conditioned haven to a place that actually sucked. No porn. No smokes. Oh, and why not take those criminals out and have them work instead of sucking even more from society (in the form of resources) than they already have.

Furthermore, you've yet to connect Joe Arpaio to the tragic death of Scott Norberg in a meaningful way. At the very most, he was negligent in not providing training on how to handle an inmate who was violent (in fact, he was booked for, among other things, hitting a police officer) and continuously spit on the jail guards. It was a senseless death in that all they had to do was put some sort of mask (like a surgeon's mask) over his mouth so he could spit upon himself. Prison Guards aren't babysitters..."time out" isn't going to work.

So, SeattleUte, you can call me a Nazi all you want, but Arpaio's tough, controversial justice, in my opinion, is effective--even if it ruffles the feathers of out-of-staters without connections to Maricopa County...and even if it makes the criminals uncomfortable.

You insult your own intelligence with the Nazi comparison. Your retort, not doubt will be something along the lines of "you insult your own intelligence by supporting Joe Arpaio." But reasonable minds often differ...particularly over controversial figures like Arpaio.

Arpaio is the sheriff, correct? He doesn't run the state pen. The majority of his "inmates" are still innocent under the law. The scary part about your post is that for the first time I realize that Joe Arpaio is not the problem. He is the symptom of the problem. The people of Arizona didn't recently lose their mind to fear salesmen, they lost it years ago and elected a maniac. Arpaio dehumanizes every person arrested. Not only does he encourage the mistreatment of those in jail, he taints the jury pool with his oft expressed and sadly, supported, belief that anyone arrested is worthy of mistreatment.

[Green Monstah]

Arpaio is the sheriff, correct? He doesn't run the state pen. The majority of his "inmates" are still innocent under the law. The scary part about your post is that for the first time I realize that Joe Arpaio is not the problem. He is the symptom of the problem. The people of Arizona didn't recently lose their mind to fear salesmen, they lost it years ago and elected a maniac. Arpaio dehumanizes every person arrested. Not only does he encourage the mistreatment of those in jail, he taints the jury pool with his oft expressed and sadly, supported, belief that anyone arrested is worthy of mistreatment.

Too broad a brush you paint with.

"Arpaio dehumanizes every person arrested"...really? Have you really thought this through?

[KillerDog]

Too broad a brush you paint with.

"Arpaio dehumanizes every person arrested"...really? Have you really thought this through?

Yeah, I've thought this through. Have you?

[BigFatMeanie]

My problem with Arpaio is that he uses the power of his office to attack his political opponents. He is in collusion with the Maricopa County Attorney.

From wikipedia:

"The targets of Arpaio's alleged abuse of power have included or currently include: Phil Gordon, Phoenix Mayor;[35] Dan Saban, Arpaio's 2004 and 2008 opponent for the office of Sheriff of Maricopa County;[35] Terry Goddard, Arizona Attorney General;[35] David Smith, Maricopa County Manager;[35] The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors;[35] Barbara Mundell, Superior Court Presiding Judge;[35] ACLU attorney Daniel Pochoda;[35] Sandra Dowling, former Maricopa County School Superintendent;[36] Mike Lacy, Phoenix New Times.[36]"

RedSox's support of Arpaio reminds me of that old line when the woman sees her son in the marching band: "Look, everyone is out of step but Joey"

Arpaio is just plain nuts. The people of Maricopa County are also nuts. Either Arpaio is right and all the people listed above are corrupt lawbreakers, in which case Maricopa County's citizens are obviously nuts for electing, hiring, or otherwise producing so many corrupt people in positions of power; or Arpaio is wrong and the people of Maricopa County are obviously nuts for allowing such a complete nutjob to still maintain his office. Either way, Killer Dog is right on in that Arpaio is not the problem - it's the people of Maricopa County that elect him that are the problem. (It says "Maricopa County" on my Arizona birth certificate - does that give me enough moral authority to make a comment on the situation?)