The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[USUC]

These latest round of tweets led to a 4 part series on BYU and the Big 12 in the Dnews. Here is the first:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865573741/Following-Tom-Holmoe-comments-on-Big-12-a-look-at-the-issues-keeping-BYU-out.html

All four are up online now.

[The_Douger]

I'm actually appreciate that he took the time to write that, and I'm happy to hear it wasn't as forthcoming as some have thought.

[YOhio]

These latest round of tweets led to a 4 part series on BYU and the Big 12 in the Dnews. Here is the first:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865573741/Following-Tom-Holmoe-comments-on-Big-12-a-look-at-the-issues-keeping-BYU-out.html

All four are up online now.

Good write up.

[Applejack]

These latest round of tweets led to a 4 part series on BYU and the Big 12 in the Dnews. Here is the first:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865573741/Following-Tom-Holmoe-comments-on-Big-12-a-look-at-the-issues-keeping-BYU-out.html

All four are up online now.

A four part series? That seems like a bit much.

[Blueintheface]

A four part series? That seems like a bit much.

Disappointment wasn't built in a day.

[Applejack]

Disappointment wasn't built in a day.

Let me know if Dicky H is contributing to the series. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts.

[Blueintheface]

Let me know if Dicky H is contributing to the series. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts.

If you listen close you can hear the hamster wheel.

[Paperback Writer]

To recap:

TH: No Big 12 offer has been made
True, but the offer is a mere formality and only extended once terms of the agreement are reached. The question that’s needs answering is why an agreement was not reached between the Big 12 and BYU and I don’t readily accept the author’s explanations. Here’s why:

Sunday Play Boogeyman:
I’ve followed Big 8/Big 12 football for decades and don’t ever recall a Sunday football game. Sunday is NFL primetime and the Big 12 along with other conferences avoid Sunday scheduling. Basketball and Olympic sports are sometimes played on Sunday but BYU could be accommodated. I think all schools would be willing to work with TH and BYU to schedule around Sunday.

TV Money Split:
That’s the real “elephant” in the room. Can BYU and another program add enough to the pie so that existing members’ portions are not reduced? I think BYU can carry its own water but another team is needed so that a CCG can be held once again. A partner is what is lacking. Notre Dame would be a great partner but I continue to think if the Irish ever join a conference it will be the B1G.

Equally important but not mentioned:
Texas and OU will also have to change their stance about not wanting to play a CCG. Back when the Big 12 was formed (or the Big 8 expanded), Texas and OU were in favor of playing a CCG. They had little to lose as both programs were rebuilding and not contending for national championships. Now that the CCG has cost Texas a shot at playing for a national title and nearly cost the Longhorns a second time and also nearly cost OU; they have changed their tune. The only way I see that changing is if the other BCS conferences (all who play a CCG) force Texas and OU to reconsider by using that against them when selecting teams for the 4-team playoff. Perhaps by some miracle, they are also able to force Notre Dame to join the Big 12 along with BYU (soon after Jim Delany becomes a missing person).

BYUtv and Tier-3 programming
The author makes a good point about Big 12 schools owning their Tier-3 rights and that that through expansion, the revenue pool for the conference is not increased. However, what is overlooked is that BYU does add additional content for Tier-3 individual schools. Don’t think the Jayhawk basketball network doesn’t want to televise a home game against BYU? Adding BYU is a huge plus not a minus. Thinking that Iowa St. or West Virginia will hold some grudge against BYU because it already has BYUtv and they don’t have something similar is misplaced and plays into the Mormon persecution complex. Those schools will look at BYU and think that’s potentially more Tier-3 content when they develop their own Teir-3 network.

Some people just don’t like BYU or the Mormon persecution complex
What a bunch of BS. Maybe TCU has sour grapes (for good reason?) because of their days together in the MWC but I doubt it (never really followed the MWC much outside of BYU and Utah). So the reader is to believe that Big 12 members will feel threatened at BYU’s inclusion? Umm, no they won’t. All those reasons the author lists for being jealous of or threatened by BYU (TV markets, enrollment, facilities, academics) will be the major reasons for inviting BYU into the Big 12 (on the topic of academics, Kansas and Iowa St. are AAU members and are not jealous of BYU). BYU is similar to Missouri in athletic competitiveness. That’s not a bad position to be in but also not one of trepidation for schools like Texas, OU, Okie St., TCU, etc. It’s not some faceless religious bigot who’s keeping BYU out of the Big 12. I don’t know the details and I think TH is doing the best with a difficult situation with BYU’s football independence. However, my instincts tell me that had BYU played their cards with the Big 12 like Nebraska did with the Big Ten, BYU would have been offered an invitation to join the Big 12. I also question whether BYU’s board of trustees want BYU in the Big 12. Are they ready to be like a Missouri (or worse) in a BCS conference? They only need to look out their windows or take a short drive (hop on the tram?) to see how that’s working out for a former rival that’s now competing in a BCS conference.

[BigFatMeanie]

To recap:

TH: No Big 12 offer has been made
True, but the offer is a mere formality and only extended once terms of the agreement are reached. The question that’s needs answering is why an agreement was not reached between the Big 12 and BYU and I don’t readily accept the author’s explanations. Here’s why:

Sunday Play Boogeyman:
I’ve followed Big 8/Big 12 football for decades and don’t ever recall a Sunday football game. Sunday is NFL primetime and the Big 12 along with other conferences avoid Sunday scheduling. Basketball and Olympic sports are sometimes played on Sunday but BYU could be accommodated. I think all schools would be willing to work with TH and BYU to schedule around Sunday.

TV Money Split:
That’s the real “elephant” in the room. Can BYU and another program add enough to the pie so that existing members’ portions are not reduced? I think BYU can carry its own water but another team is needed so that a CCG can be held once again. A partner is what is lacking. Notre Dame would be a great partner but I continue to think if the Irish ever join a conference it will be the B1G.

Equally important but not mentioned:
Texas and OU will also have to change their stance about not wanting to play a CCG. Back when the Big 12 was formed (or the Big 8 expanded), Texas and OU were in favor of playing a CCG. They had little to lose as both programs were rebuilding and not contending for national championships. Now that the CCG has cost Texas a shot at playing for a national title and nearly cost the Longhorns a second time and also nearly cost OU; they have changed their tune. The only way I see that changing is if the other BCS conferences (all who play a CCG) force Texas and OU to reconsider by using that against them when selecting teams for the 4-team playoff. Perhaps by some miracle, they are also able to force Notre Dame to join the Big 12 along with BYU (soon after Jim Delany becomes a missing person).

BYUtv and Tier-3 programming
The author makes a good point about Big 12 schools owning their Tier-3 rights and that that through expansion, the revenue pool for the conference is not increased. However, what is overlooked is that BYU does add additional content for Tier-3 individual schools. Don’t think the Jayhawk basketball network doesn’t want to televise a home game against BYU? Adding BYU is a huge plus not a minus. Thinking that Iowa St. or West Virginia will hold some grudge against BYU because it already has BYUtv and they don’t have something similar is misplaced and plays into the Mormon persecution complex. Those schools will look at BYU and think that’s potentially more Tier-3 content when they develop their own Teir-3 network.

Some people just don’t like BYU or the Mormon persecution complex
What a bunch of BS. Maybe TCU has sour grapes (for good reason?) because of their days together in the MWC but I doubt it (never really followed the MWC much outside of BYU and Utah). So the reader is to believe that Big 12 members will feel threatened at BYU’s inclusion? Umm, no they won’t. All those reasons the author lists for being jealous of or threatened by BYU (TV markets, enrollment, facilities, academics) will be the major reasons for inviting BYU into the Big 12 (on the topic of academics, Kansas and Iowa St. are AAU members and are not jealous of BYU). BYU is similar to Missouri in athletic competitiveness. That’s not a bad position to be in but also not one of trepidation for schools like Texas, OU, Okie St., TCU, etc. It’s not some faceless religious bigot who’s keeping BYU out of the Big 12. I don’t know the details and I think TH is doing the best with a difficult situation with BYU’s football independence. However, my instincts tell me that had BYU played their cards with the Big 12 like Nebraska did with the Big Ten, BYU would have been offered an invitation to join the Big 12. I also question whether BYU’s board of trustees want BYU in the Big 12. Are they ready to be like a Missouri (or worse) in a BCS conference? They only need to look out their windows or take a short drive (hop on the tram?) to see how that’s working out for a former rival that’s now competing in a BCS conference.

So, you shoot down the author's explanations but offer no alternatives. Tell us, why do you think the parties weren't able to reach terms on an agreement?

[The_Douger]

To recap:

TH: No Big 12 offer has been made
True, but the offer is a mere formality and only extended once terms of the agreement are reached. The question that’s needs answering is why an agreement was not reached between the Big 12 and BYU and I don’t readily accept the author’s explanations. Here’s why:

Sunday Play Boogeyman:
I’ve followed Big 8/Big 12 football for decades and don’t ever recall a Sunday football game. Sunday is NFL primetime and the Big 12 along with other conferences avoid Sunday scheduling. Basketball and Olympic sports are sometimes played on Sunday but BYU could be accommodated. I think all schools would be willing to work with TH and BYU to schedule around Sunday.

TV Money Split:
That’s the real “elephant” in the room. Can BYU and another program add enough to the pie so that existing members’ portions are not reduced? I think BYU can carry its own water but another team is needed so that a CCG can be held once again. A partner is what is lacking. Notre Dame would be a great partner but I continue to think if the Irish ever join a conference it will be the B1G.

Equally important but not mentioned:
Texas and OU will also have to change their stance about not wanting to play a CCG. Back when the Big 12 was formed (or the Big 8 expanded), Texas and OU were in favor of playing a CCG. They had little to lose as both programs were rebuilding and not contending for national championships. Now that the CCG has cost Texas a shot at playing for a national title and nearly cost the Longhorns a second time and also nearly cost OU; they have changed their tune. The only way I see that changing is if the other BCS conferences (all who play a CCG) force Texas and OU to reconsider by using that against them when selecting teams for the 4-team playoff. Perhaps by some miracle, they are also able to force Notre Dame to join the Big 12 along with BYU (soon after Jim Delany becomes a missing person).

BYUtv and Tier-3 programming
The author makes a good point about Big 12 schools owning their Tier-3 rights and that that through expansion, the revenue pool for the conference is not increased. However, what is overlooked is that BYU does add additional content for Tier-3 individual schools. Don’t think the Jayhawk basketball network doesn’t want to televise a home game against BYU? Adding BYU is a huge plus not a minus. Thinking that Iowa St. or West Virginia will hold some grudge against BYU because it already has BYUtv and they don’t have something similar is misplaced and plays into the Mormon persecution complex. Those schools will look at BYU and think that’s potentially more Tier-3 content when they develop their own Teir-3 network.

Some people just don’t like BYU or the Mormon persecution complex
What a bunch of BS. Maybe TCU has sour grapes (for good reason?) because of their days together in the MWC but I doubt it (never really followed the MWC much outside of BYU and Utah). So the reader is to believe that Big 12 members will feel threatened at BYU’s inclusion? Umm, no they won’t. All those reasons the author lists for being jealous of or threatened by BYU (TV markets, enrollment, facilities, academics) will be the major reasons for inviting BYU into the Big 12 (on the topic of academics, Kansas and Iowa St. are AAU members and are not jealous of BYU). BYU is similar to Missouri in athletic competitiveness. That’s not a bad position to be in but also not one of trepidation for schools like Texas, OU, Okie St., TCU, etc. It’s not some faceless religious bigot who’s keeping BYU out of the Big 12. I don’t know the details and I think TH is doing the best with a difficult situation with BYU’s football independence. However, my instincts tell me that had BYU played their cards with the Big 12 like Nebraska did with the Big Ten, BYU would have been offered an invitation to join the Big 12. I also question whether BYU’s board of trustees want BYU in the Big 12. Are they ready to be like a Missouri (or worse) in a BCS conference? They only need to look out their windows or take a short drive (hop on the tram?) to see how that’s working out for a former rival that’s now competing in a BCS conference.

The problem with their CCG argument is that Oklahoma State already got left out of the picture due to not having a CCG 2 years ago. CCG is a net benefit. If your top team can't win the CCG, they didn't deserve to go to the national title game anyways.

Their arrogance about it is astounding to me. Every other major conference is doing a CCG. They just think their little round robin is sufficient, I guess.

[Paperback Writer]

So, you shoot down the author's explanations but offer no alternatives. Tell us, why do you think the parties weren't able to reach terms on an agreement?

I thought I had.

TV Money Split:
That’s the real “elephant” in the room. Can BYU and another program add enough to the pie so that existing members’ portions are not reduced? I think BYU can carry its own water but another team is needed so that a CCG can be held once again. A partner is what is lacking. Notre Dame would be a great partner but I continue to think if the Irish ever join a conference it will be the B1G.

Equally important but not mentioned:
Texas and OU will also have to change their stance about not wanting to play a CCG....

My instincts tell me that had BYU played their cards with the Big 12 like Nebraska did with the Big Ten, BYU would have been offered an invitation to join the Big 12.

I also question whether BYU’s board of trustees want BYU in the Big 12. Are they ready to be like a Missouri (or worse) in a BCS conference? They only need to look out their windows or take a short drive (hop on the tram?) to see how that’s working out for a former rival that’s now competing in a BCS conference.

In summary:
1. BYU needs a partner, preferably, Notre Dame. Or someone else who can also carry their own water.
2. Texas and OU have to be convinced to change their stance on a CCG
3. When, if, talks resume again, BYU makes no demands to the Big 12 other than no Sunday play. If TH wasn't there already, he's there now. I have no information to the contrary but do give some credence to second hand information about asking for rebroadcasting on BYUtv and revenue guarantees similar to their deal with ESPN. When the Big Ten approached Nebraska, Nebraska asked for very little and made no demands.
4. I question if BYU's BOT wants BYU in a BCS conference. Perhaps they like BYU being independent in football.

Note:
I realize many BYU fans want the Big 12. TH seems to want it. I do question if the majority of BYU fans will think it was such a great idea once BYU competes in the Big 12. BYU seems to have the money for high quality facilities and enough revenue to run a successful program as an independent. Will fans be happier with a 10-2 independent BYU or a 7-5 Big 12 BYU?

The problem with their CCG argument is that Oklahoma State already got left out of the picture due to not having a CCG 2 years ago. CCG is a net benefit. If your top team can't win the CCG, they didn't deserve to go to the national title game anyways.

Their arrogance about it is astounding to me. Every other major conference is doing a CCG. They just think their little round robin is sufficient, I guess.

I could almost guarantee you that if this had happened to Texas or OU and not Okie St., the Big 12 would be singing a different tune right now. Nebraska objected to the CCG back in 1995 (only the SEC had a CCG then). And it cost them a shot at another national title in the inaugural CCG in 1996 when they got upset by Texas. But Texas and OU didn't care until it happened or almost happened to them. I agree, if you can't win a CCG, you don't belong in a 4-team playoff. But OU and Texas take the apporach that they play each other in early October; the loser could still end up in a 4-team playoff. If the OU-Texas winner then loses a CCG, then neither one may end up in a 4-team playoff.

[Cougarmandias]

I'm actually appreciate that he took the time to write that, and I'm happy to hear it wasn't as forthcoming as some have thought.

Same here. If Sunday play was BYU's only non-negotiable condition, than I also believe that there wasn't a real offer, because I doubt that would have been too big a hang up for the B12 either.

But it does make the TCU invite hard to understand.

[The_Douger]

Same here. If Sunday play was BYU's only non-negotiable condition, than I also believe that there wasn't a real offer, because I doubt that would have been too big a hang up for the B12 either.

But it does make the TCU invite hard to understand.

Honestly, when all that was going on, I was absolutely glued to every source of info I could get. I would check in here, on Cougarboard, on TBS, Twitter, all that crap.

I thought it would happen, and was crushed when it didn't.

I've kind of just moved on from it, as far as hoping we get in to a Big 5 league. I want that to be where BYU is, but realistically, I think we're on our own in football for a long, long time.

[Paperback Writer]

Same here. If Sunday play was BYU's only non-negotiable condition, than I also believe that there wasn't a real offer, because I doubt that would have been too big a hang up for the B12 either.

But it does make the TCU invite hard to understand.

It's not that hard when one considers power dynamics in the Big 12. The conference lost Texas A&M to the SEC. TCU was the logical replacement because they will be a reliable voting partner with Texas and OU.

In my view, if all it were was no Sunday play in the wake of the departures of Nebraska and Colorado; BYU would have been extended an offer. And that's why I think there were more demands made because I agree that "no Sunday play" would not have been too big a hang up for the Big 12. Offers only come after agreements have been reached on principal issues. They are formalities. That way either party can tell the media that "no offer was made" when what most likely happened is that they couldn't agree to terms.

[YOhio]

Two pieces of news.

Bob Bowlsby is still holding strong at 10.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/2/27/4036616/big-12-expansion-bob-bowlsby-10-teams

Oliver Luck screwed up the WVU 3rd Tier media rights procurement. lol. WV yokels.

http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201304150070