Big 10 expansion talk heating up

[woot]

i'm not sure calling byu short of a "decent school" is accurate or productive, but whatever. there are bad professors everywhere, all the (quantitative) rankings data make this argument non-unique to byu. somebody's just upset that they're 50 spots behind us on the usnews rankings.

You don't pay attention around here do you?

How many schools in the PAC 10 are better academically than BYu?

All of them, if academics are defined by research and freedom, and it's not even close. If you mostly just count the quality of the students, BYU would rank significantly higher. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, however, since presumably all those high-quality people are getting together for a reason other than talking to each other.

Depending on how you define 'better' - I think you could conclude that only Stanford is clearly better (only Stanford clearly has better incoming undergraduate students). Incoming students at BYU are surprisingly close to Berkeley's. Not positive about USC's incoming Freshmen...

Or, looking at it another way, that all of the PAC-10 schools are clearly better (total academic programs, research done, etc). And on that scale, you'd have to conclude that the UofU is clearly better as well...

This is basically it. It adds significantly to one's education to be surrounded by bright students, but ultimately it's the professors, the facilities, and the research programs that count.

[Viking]

So your anecdotal experience trumps hard data?

Memo to self: never hire Viking as a broker.

Hard data? US news and wr is hard data? Anecdotal?? I went to byu. It is mediocre. Make an argument to the contrary.

It has a great acct program, econ is top notch, engineering very solid. Liberal arts?? No real academic freedom to have a truly critical eye.

Not a broker, FYI. Smartass.

[woot]

This discussion has taken a very wrong turn. Since BYU will never get into the PAC 10-12 due to bigotry, why worry about where the Lord's University stacks up academically. The real question is where does Utah fit?

Using U.S. News and Word Report's rankings, here is where Utah will fit:

Stanford (ranked #4)
UC Berkeley (ranked #21)
UCLA (ranked #24)
USC (ranked #26)
Washington (ranked #42)
Arizona (ranked #102)
WSU (ranked #106)
Oregon (ranked #115)
ASU (ranked #121)
Utah (ranked #126, only two rankings above Tier 3)
OSU (Tier 3)

fwiw, Colorado, ranked #77, would come in sixth between Washington and Arizona. BYU, ranked #71, would come at the same spot.

Looking at a Colorado-less Big 12, BYU would rock their world:

Texas (ranked #47)
aTm (ranked #61)
BYU (ranked #71)
Baylor (ranked #80)
Iowa State (ranked #88)
Kansas (ranked #96)
Nebraska (ranked #96)
Missouri (ranked #102)
Oklahoma (ranked #102)
Kansas State (Tier 3)
Oklahoma State (Tier 3)
Texas Tech (Tier 3)

fwiw, Utah would come in ninth, just above the Tier 3 KSU, OSU, and TT.

Clearly, BYU>Utah.

These aren't the sort of rankings the Pac10 cares about. There are a great many liberal arts colleges ranked ahead of world-class research institutions on some of these lists. In this context, academics = research.

[byu71]

These aren't the sort of rankings the Pac10 cares about. There are a great many liberal arts colleges ranked ahead of world-class research institutions on some of these lists. In this context, academics = research.

Is studying whether the Egytians built the pyramids by themselves or with help from aliens considered research. Just curious.

[Viking]

Masters of the Universe? I will bet there are as many or more big shot corporate guys from BYU than UW, WSU, AU, ASU, UCLA, USC and possibly CAL. Probably true for lawyers too.

Sure, we are better than wsu, osu, au maybe asu (bet we are equiv) but we are too envious and talk too much about others as opposed to doing it ourselves

[byu71]

Sure, we are better than wsu, osu, au maybe asu (bet we are equiv) but we are too envious and talk too much about others as opposed to doing it ourselves

WE??

[SoonerCoug]

BYU is a competitive state school for Mormons, with a remarkable focus on teaching. Research is hit and miss, but not bad for an institution that is focused on teaching. I think BYU mostly kicks butt in the quality of the students that it attracts (especially if you look at the top 2000 students in every freshman class).

When you compare BYU to other large schools, I don't think anyone can argue that BYU isn't an outstanding institution, especially when you look at standardized test scores and statistics on the number of BYU graduates who go on to professional and graduate programs.

(Disclaimer: The positive comments in this statement do not apply to certain departments, especially the religion department, nor do they apply to many BYU professors from non-religion departments who choose to teach religion classes.)

[Viking]

These aren't the sort of rankings the Pac10 cares about. There are a great many liberal arts colleges ranked ahead of world-class research institutions on some of these lists. In this context, academics = research.

Byu is considered to be a great technical university here in NYC. Lots of people interact w byu accountants in various fields. It is a "doing" school as opposed to a "thinking" school.

I mean, name the great byu scholars. None. Great accountants and engineers. Pope has a great enviro Econ rep around these parts. Can't think of much more. Oh yeah, the Young Ambassadors.

[Jarid in Cedar]

So to sum it up, BYU is a school that attracts very bright students who do well on standardized testing, but are there for something besides education

[Viking]

WE??

Yes dear Internet pseudofriend, I am a cougar for life. Sorry to disappoint you but my name is always attached to byu. I'm on your team.

[woot]

Byu is considered to be a great technical university here in NYC. Lots of people interact w byu accountants in various fields. It is a "doing" school as opposed to a "thinking" school.

I mean, name the great byu scholars. None. Great accountants and engineers. Pope has a great enviro Econ rep around these parts. Can't think of much more. Oh yeah, the Young Ambassadors.

My take on why BYU churns out good lawyers, engineers, MBAs, etc. but not any scientists or scholars is that those fields generally don't require much in the way of free thought. It's not hard to police lawyers to make sure they don't do research that weakens the church's truth claims. Not true of archaeologists, biologists, etc.

[Viking]

BYU is a competitive state school for Mormons, with a remarkable focus on teaching. Research is hit and miss, but not bad for an institution that is focused on teaching. I think BYU mostly kicks butt in the quality of the students that it attracts (especially if you look at the top 2000 students in every freshman class).

When you compare BYU to other large schools, I don't think anyone can argue that BYU isn't an outstanding institution, especially when you look at standardized test scores and statistics on the number of BYU graduates who go on to professional and graduate programs.

(Disclaimer: The positive comments in this statement do not apply to certain departments, especially the religion department, nor do they apply to many BYU professors from non-religion departments who choose to teach religion classes.)

The top 10% at byu could compete at most top twenty universities. It's the other 90% that's the problem.

[Viking]

My take on why BYU churns out good lawyers, engineers, MBAs, etc. but not any scientists or scholars is that those fields generally don't require much in the way of free thought. It's not hard to police lawyers to make sure they don't do research that weakens the church's truth claims. Not true of archaeologists, biologists, etc.

Bingo

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hard data? US news and wr is hard data? Anecdotal?? I went to byu. It is mediocre. Make an argument to the contrary.

We can argue about the metrics that they use, but at least they have a systematic evaluation process. It includes questionnaires sent to universities (i.e., peer-ratings play an important role). Compared to your personal opinion, yeah I would call that hard data.

Not a broker, FYI. Smartass.

My bad. I thought you had some job analyzing financial data.

[byu71]

Yes dear Internet pseudofriend, I am a cougar for life. Sorry to disappoint you but my name is always attached to byu. I'm on your team.

I gladly accept the "we" are cougars. I am a big tent guy. However, "we" aren't envious.

While I believe there are numerous, yea verily, numerous numerous bright folks and thinkers on this board, I don't know where there degrees are from. You for instance, I don't know where you got your grad. degree. JIC, I guess he got his MD at the U, but don't know for sure. I think PAC is a BYU degreed lawyer, but don't know for sure. SU and DDD, I don't know where there law degrees are from. All the great professor thinkers on here, I don't know where they got there degrees from.

Note: The names mentioned were drawn from my mind randomly. I am not saying they are the best of the best. I am not saying they aren't. I envy their thinking, not their degrees.