Big 10 expansion talk heating up

[Viking]

We can argue about the metrics that they use, but at least they have a systematic evaluation process. It includes questionnaires sent to universities (i.e., peer-ratings play an important role). Compared to your personal opinion, yeah I would call that hard data.



My bad. I thought you had some job analyzing financial data.

There are volumes written about how the US news rankings are basically horse shit outside the top twenty.

Yes I analyze financial data and I'm pretty fucking good at it. I don't take potshots at your job, don't take them at mine

[SoonerCoug]

My take on why BYU churns out good lawyers, engineers, MBAs, etc. but not any scientists or scholars is that those fields generally don't require much in the way of free thought. It's not hard to police lawyers to make sure they don't do research that weakens the church's truth claims. Not true of archaeologists, biologists, etc.

Um, I know quite a few scientists that BYU has churned out. It's just that most of them are on the young side. (And I am in no way referring to myself here.) We are recruiting a really awesome stem cell guy right now, and he also happens to be a BYU grad.

I think BYU has undergone meteoric improvement over the last 20-30 years, and it's mostly because of the students. I think many more BYU grads are in the science pipeline right now.

I also think that low academic salaries discourage some BYU grads from going into science or academia. By the time most BYU grads finish graduate or professional school, they have a whole bunch of children and debt, and they go into industry where life is simple and salaries are bigger.

[byu71]

My take on why BYU churns out good lawyers, engineers, MBAs, etc. but not any scientists or scholars is that those fields generally don't require much in the way of free thought. It's not hard to police lawyers to make sure they don't do research that weakens the church's truth claims. Not true of archaeologists, biologists, etc.

It could also be BYU students gravitate to jobs that make it easier to pay tithing.

[All-American]

I went to BYU. My time in catholic prep school was multiple times harder. BYU is a joke. Utah is a bigger joke.

This would depend at least in part on what you did while at said schools. I did two majors at BYU. One was much more difficult than the other. You could get in and out of BYU without breaking a sweat if you really wanted to, or it could be one of the most difficult things you ever did.

[woot]

Um, I know quite a few scientists that BYU has churned out. It's just that most of them are on the young side. (And I am in no way referring to myself here.) We are recruiting a really awesome stem cell guy right now, and he also happens to be a BYU grad.

I think BYU has undergone meteoric improvement over the last 20-30 years, and it's mostly because of the students. I think many more BYU grads are in the science pipeline right now.

I also think that low academic salaries discourage some BYU grads from going into science or academia. By the time most BYU grads finish graduate or professional school, they have a whole bunch of children and debt, and they go into industry where life is simple and salaries are bigger.

Oh when I talk of churning out scientists I'm talking about doctorates. BYU churned me out so I sure can't deny that they can provide undergraduate educations to future scientists.

[pellegrino]

My take on why BYU churns out good lawyers, engineers, MBAs, etc. but not any scientists or scholars is that those fields generally don't require much in the way of free thought. It's not hard to police lawyers to make sure they don't do research that weakens the church's truth claims. Not true of archaeologists, biologists, etc.

BYU does excel at producing students oriented on those careers. I would add to the list medical doctors and dentists. I think this is the Mormon cultural aspect shining through. Good Mormon boys must find practical careers so that they can fill their divine mandate to provide for their family.

That said, I think you are underestimating how many BYU grads and Mormons are in the humanities and there are those who are at the top of their fields. John Peters, at the University of Iowa comes to mind. The difference being that many in the humanities have either left the church, or do not openly associate themselves with it. This does not change the fact that they were educated at BYU.

Many in the humanities have a great respect for the preparation that BYU gives its students. Sure, certain critical theories may not get full play at BYU, but the college of humanities does do a good job of educating their students.

Now what this doesn't change is the fact that BYU is not, nor will it ever be considered an academic peer of any of the PAC 10 schools, or any research oriented school. It's ridiculous for anyone to assert the contrary.

[old_gregg]

byu had produced ten rhodes scholars, harvey fletcher, philo farnsworth, mitt, kim clark, paul boyer, gary crittenden, kevin rollins, etc. comparisons are all well and good, but to say that byu is somehow inadequate in any way is just inaccurate according to available data and prominence of alumni.

[myboynoah]

These aren't the sort of rankings the Pac10 cares about. There are a great many liberal arts colleges ranked ahead of world-class research institutions on some of these lists. In this context, academics = research.

They care enough to issue press releases when they are ranked high on any number of U.S. News and World Report's rankings. Here is one from CAL:

Latest U.S. News rankings place Berkeley, again, at the top of the publics

[myboynoah]

BYU does excel at producing students oriented on those careers. I would add to the list medical doctors and dentists. I think this is the Mormon cultural aspect shining through. Good Mormon boys must find practical careers so that they can fill their divine mandate to provide for their family.

That said, I think you are underestimating how many BYU grads and Mormons are in the humanities and there are those who are at the top of their fields. John Peters, at the University of Iowa comes to mind. The difference being that many in the humanities have either left the church, or do not openly associate themselves with it. This does not change the fact that they were educated at BYU.

Many in the humanities have a great respect for the preparation that BYU gives its students. Sure, certain critical theories may not get full play at BYU, but the college of humanities does do a good job of educating their students.

Now what this doesn't change is the fact that BYU is not, nor will it ever be considered an academic peer of any of the PAC 10 schools, or any research oriented school. It's ridiculous for anyone to assert the contrary.

So research is key when considering academic peers? Without it in the formalized sense, then BYU can't even rank academically with schools like Utah and Oregon State.

[byu71]

Now what this doesn't change is the fact that BYU is not, nor will it ever be considered an academic peer of any of the PAC 10 schools, or any research oriented school. It's ridiculous for anyone to assert the contrary.

Does my following perception have any validity. Those who decide if BYU is an academic peer are those who are academians. Academians are for the most part more liberal. They value free thinking and free flowing exchange of ideas. Therefor, the criteria is not the product of educating, but how educating is done.

It is like journalists and news networks not accepting Fox as a peer even though Fox garners the largest viewership.

Even if it could be proven students at BYU were educated as well as their peers in the PAC10, it wouldn't be accepted by those who judge.

[falafel]

Link? I don't believe it.

Except for ARGUABLY Austin, the major Pac 10 urban centers offer a lot more cache, exposure and access to recruits. Pac 10 academics is superior (Colorado is still trying to clean up the stain that Gary Barnett left). There is a lot more glitz, prestige, population and money in the Pac 10 (except arguably for Texas). Nicer, more attractive venues too. Probably the grass is looking greener on the otherside of the fense at poor beleaguered Colorado, anyway. Colorado can't fight destiny.

Colorado has no symbiosis, no natural rivalry with any Big 12 school. Colorado has always been the odd school in the Big 12, which is a midwest/southwest conference.

Here is a link.

http://www.seattlepi.com/archives/1994/9412230102.asp

It says Colorado might join in the future. It also confirms Colorado to the Pac 10 would be something the Pac 10 would pursue.

Here's a link for this - actually it was posted just above here.

Colorado: In 1994, the Pac-10 actually invited Colorado into the conference, only to be rebuffed. At the time, Colorado was just beginning play in the new Big-12 Conference, and did not want to go back on its commitment.

http://www.laobserved.com/intell/201..._expansion.php

[PaloAltoCougar]

Sure, we are better than wsu, osu, au maybe asu (bet we are equiv) but we are too envious and talk too much about others as opposed to doing it ourselves

"Maybe" ASU? Sheesh. As long as we're relying on anecdotal evidence here, let us look to Ned Flanders who, during a Simpsons dream sequence, saw Homer passing through the pearly gates, and observed, "Good golly, Heaven's easier to get into than Arizona State!"

[pellegrino]

So research is key when considering academic peers? Without it in the formalized sense, then BYU can't even rank academically with schools like Utah and Oregon State.

Yes, you are correct.

Does my following perception have any validity. Those who decide if BYU is an academic peer are those who are academians. Academians are for the most part more liberal. They value free thinking and free flowing exchange of ideas. Therefor, the criteria is not the product of educating, but how educating is done.

It is like journalists and news networks not accepting Fox as a peer even though Fox garners the largest viewership.

Even if it could be proven students at BYU were educated as well as their peers in the PAC10, it wouldn't be accepted by those who judge.

I see what you're saying, but the classification of universities is much more complex than that. Google "Carnegie classification" and you'll see that there is a complicated system that does its best to compare universities based on student population, research activities, programs offered, institutional goals, etc. Search for BYU and see what schools are deemed similar to BYU. I think you'll be surprised/disappointed at the results.

[DU Ute]

byu had produced ten rhodes scholars, harvey fletcher, philo farnsworth, mitt, kim clark, paul boyer, gary crittenden, kevin rollins, etc. comparisons are all well and good, but to say that byu is somehow inadequate in any way is just inaccurate according to available data and prominence of alumni.

Didn't the Florida State football team just churn out a Rhodes Scholar? Congrats on being grouped with such a fine academic enterprise.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There are volumes written about how the US news rankings are basically horse shit outside the top twenty.

Yes I analyze financial data and I'm pretty fucking good at it. I don't take potshots at your job, don't take them at mine

Wait, so the school you attended and your former religion are fair game, but your job is off-limits?

Whatever you do for a living, it keeps you wound pretty tightly. You seem to live a humorless existence.