Big 10 expansion talk heating up

[woot]

I've long held these same views, although I wish they were false. Both the research institution argument and the no-Sunday play problem are fig leaves. Based on objective criteria, BYU's student body is superior to at least half those of the PAC-10, as are its professional schools. But for the Church ties (and that's leviathan "but for"), BYU's academics wouldn't be an issue. Similarly, Sunday play is not a major issue in the PAC-10 and would require only minor schedule tweaking.

The Church has always prided itself on being "a peculiar people." While certainly defensible, even laudable, such peculiarity is repellent to many poobahs of the PAC-10. That's the conference's loss as BYU would raise the average for academic and athletic performance in the PAC 10 and, as noted by a couple of conference AD's in the past, would bring greater than average numbers of fans when traveling to other schools' stadia and arenas.

This seems like an overly generous assessment. The Pac10 wants to be an elite research conference (and it mostly is). That BYU is able to have artificially high admission requirements for non-academic reasons doesn't make it a decent school. There are some good professors there, but there are also some very bad ones. There is very little in the way of research, and there isn't academic freedom.

I have no doubt that the church is an issue for getting into the Pac10, but one cannot separate the church from the effects it has on its school. If it were no longer a church-run school, many of the above problems would eventually be fixed, but it wouldn't be the same school.

[Viking]

Intersting dilema. Academia and culture vs money. My bet is on money.

There's some truth to all of this. Utah seems to be going to Pac10. BYU likely stays MWC with BSU coming in to replace Utah.

[falafel]

There's some truth to all of this. Utah seems to be going to Pac10. BYU likely stays MWC with BSU coming in to replace Utah.

I'm sorry, but what is there to suggest that "Utah seems to be going to the Pac10", other than message board chatter? Even the "news" stories (e.g. Wesley "blinky" Ruff) state they are only speculating that Utah would be considered.

[byu71]

There's some truth to all of this. Utah seems to be going to Pac10. BYU likely stays MWC with BSU coming in to replace Utah.

In my opinion this result would be a big blow to BYU as far as athletics go.

[PaloAltoCougar]

This seems like an overly generous assessment. The Pac10 wants to be an elite research conference (and it mostly is). That BYU is able to have artificially high admission requirements for non-academic reasons doesn't make it a decent school. There are some good professors there, but there are also some very bad ones. There is very little in the way of research, and there isn't academic freedom.

I have no doubt that the church is an issue for getting into the Pac10, but one cannot separate the church from the effects it has on its school. If it were no longer a church-run school, many of the above problems would eventually be fixed, but it wouldn't be the same school.

It's a mixed bag of pluses and minuses, no doubt. You've mentioned some of the negatives, and I don't disagree. On the plus side, it's because of the Church that the BYUs can attract certain faculty members that it wouldn't otherwise (see, e.g., Kim Clark who left his job as Dean of the Harvard Business School to head up BYUI, BYUI!). There are other professors of unusually high repute at BYU (and yes, I'll certainly concede the presence of some lousy ones). And I also believe BYU's unusual structure (and absence of a large research element) often leads to more classes, seminars and interactions with the best professors. My undergrad experience included a lot of time with Arthur Henry King, Terry Warner, Truman Madsen, Allan Bergin and several others who were there primarily to teach, after having achieved some impressive things previously.

But yes, take away the Church and the school becomes better and a lot worse.

[Viking]

I'm sorry, but what is there to suggest that "Utah seems to be going to the Pac10", other than message board chatter? Even the "news" stories (e.g. Wesley "blinky" Ruff) state they are only speculating that Utah would be considered.

I have no inside scoop and I too am repeating speculatiion. I spoke with a cousin who is very close to the program and said there is lots of chatter re: what I said. Chatter. Speculation. But it does sound like something more than just dudes on CB/UFN or a dipshit commentator.

[old_gregg]

That BYU is able to have artificially high admission requirements for non-academic reasons doesn't make it a decent school. There are some good professors there, but there are also some very bad ones.

i'm not sure calling byu short of a "decent school" is accurate or productive, but whatever. there are bad professors everywhere, all the (quantitative) rankings data make this argument non-unique to byu. somebody's just upset that they're 50 spots behind us on the usnews rankings.

[Maximus]

This seems like an overly generous assessment. The Pac10 wants to be an elite research conference (and it mostly is). That BYU is able to have artificially high admission requirements for non-academic reasons doesn't make it a decent school. There are some good professors there, but there are also some very bad ones. There is very little in the way of research, and there isn't academic freedom.

I have no doubt that the church is an issue for getting into the Pac10, but one cannot separate the church from the effects it has on its school. If it were no longer a church-run school, many of the above problems would eventually be fixed, but it wouldn't be the same school.

How many schools in the PAC 10 are better academically than BYu?

[old_gregg]

berkeley, stanford, usc, maybe ucla.

[statman]

That BYU is able to have artificially high admission requirements for non-academic reasons doesn't make it a decent school.

I'll buy that. BYU is a god school because of its students, not its faculty. In fact, for most programs, its a good school in spite of its faculty. It's a good school with a good reputation among employers and academia because:

1) it's hard enough to get in that almost everyone who gets in is actually smart.

2) they grade everything on a curve and survival of the fittest is the name of the game in its competitive programs - unlike anything I've ever even heard of at any other undergraduate school. But if those same smart kids at BYU went to another school, they'd find that good grades were a lot easier to come by, and with better faculty, they may actually learn a bit more, and might actually have more opportunities coming out of their undergrads. What's better? A 3.50 at BYU scratching and clawing for every grade, or a 3.90 at the local state college (you pick the state) with a lot less worry and work? Same score on GMAT, LSAT, MCAT, GRE. Even with the good rep that BYU has with grad schools, the higher GPA at State U is hard to turn away from. So is the mental health afforded by a less competitive undergraduate course of study. Students need to understand this before enrolling at BYU.

[Mormon Red Death]

berkeley, stanford, usc, maybe ucla.

maybe ucla?? Are you high?

[old_gregg]

they grade everything on a curve and survival of the fittest is the name of the game in its competitive programs

exactly. plus, the connections a lot of the professors (at least those i've dealt with at the business school) have to lds folks at employers/grad schools is a big plus. there's a reason why places like goldman sachs like to hire byu grads; it's their retired execs that are writing letters of recommendation for msm grads.

[old_gregg]

maybe ucla?? Are you high?

it's weird how short that list gets when you filter out private universities...

[Viking]

How many schools in the PAC 10 are better academically than BYu?

All CA schools smoke BYU in academics. UW is better. Oregon likely better, too.

BYU is a pretty shitty school, outside of a few undergrad and graduate programs.

[Maximus]

All CA schools smoke BYU in academics. UW is better. Oregon likely better, too.

BYU is a pretty shitty school, outside of a few undergrad and graduate programs.

Academic rankings would disagree with you.