So where does Max end up among BYU QB's?

[FMCoug]

I think you're right about the mythologizing of past BYU greats. Even Detmer, who is arguably our best college QB ever, stunk it up at times. I think we BYU fans just all like to remember the Miami game.

This is a great point. In fact, I can't remember Hall stinking it up as bad (against a sub-par team anyway) as Detmer did against Hawaii 1990 for example.

[UtahDan]

OK...I'm more than sick of talking or hearing about this and I think we're both seeing it from our own lenses. Sort of like when JIC and I were watching the Unga fumble/non-fumble, we were both seeing what we wanted to see. I do think you kind of want to fit Hall into your stereotype of the self-righteous BYU player, while I want to see a kid that's defending his wife and mom. The truth is somewhere in between.

I think you're right about the mythologizing of past BYU greats. Even Detmer, who is arguably our best college QB ever, stunk it up at times. I think we BYU fans just all like to remember the Miami game.

See, this is why I give it 24 hours before I post. I'm just getting warm. But you have misunderstood me, or else I haven't been clear. I'm not saying that he fits the stereotype, I'm saying his comments do. Just like Collie's did. PAC and others noted this in the other thread. When a BYU QB talks about beer, well, you know what I'm going to say.

It is too bad though, because like it or not, this is the thing that is going to get talked about and talked about. It steals the focus from the win. And you can't lay that at the fans feet, that is Max's doing. I think that is one frustrated guy, maybe mostly at his own fans, and that is the way it came out.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

This is what I don't get. Why all the Beck fanboy love? He was really good for most of his Senior year.

The Beck love is something I have never gotten. Even when he was in the first third of his senior year which he sucked he had massive amounts of defenders.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

The Beck love is something I have never gotten. Even when he was in the first third of his senior year which he sucked he had massive amounts of defenders.

I think you're ignoring the span of Beck's career at BYU which started amidst the Crowton dark ages. Beck also got better the longer he played.

Hall has thrown for about the same number of TDs this season as Beck did his senior season, but he's also thrown about twice the interceptions. Hall inherited a really good team with a solid, consistent coaching staff while three years of Beck's career took place either under inept coaching or having to learn a new offense. But Beck's senior season, stats-wise, was better than any of Hall's seasons.

Hall has had the best RB that could actually stay healthy that BYU has ever had. He played with the best WR that BYU's ever had. He played with one of BYU's top 3 Tight Ends. And, again, he's played during three seasons where BYU's program and coaching situation has been very stable. Certainly, Hall didn't ruin things. He's won a helluva lot of games. But any of the QBs above him if given the same personnel, coaching and opportunities would have done the same.

Remarkably, Hall stats line up pretty evenly (but in reverse) with the over-maligned John Walsh. In 93, Walsh as a Sophomore had a 156 passer rating. He followed that with a 143 passing rating in 94. Hall as sophomore had a 137 passer rating and then improved to 157 last year. This year, Hall is at 160. Beck went for 169 (32 TDs and 8 picks) his senior year. Sark went for 173 in 1996. Doman had a nearly identical 159 rating (33 TDs, 8 picks) in 2000 that Hall had this year.

I think you have to rate these guys based on their best seasons simply because Bosco had to wait behind Young, Young behind McMahon, McMahon behind Wilson and Wilson behind Nielson. Doman wasn't given a chance soon enough to make it in very much before the end of his Junior year. Hall was given the starting job his sophomore season and no other QB on the team had any experience so he wasn't fighting for the starting job. Hall's situation more closely resembles Detmer's or Walsh's than any other QB. Hall doesn't compare favorably to Detmer, but does compare favorably to Walsh. Hall was clearly better than Walsh, but not better than Detmer.

[happyone]

I guess I would put him the 5-10 range, I'm not sure exactly where. On the stats thing remember McMahon, Young, Wilson, Shiede, Bosco, Nielson all only started 2 years.

My top five would be McMahon, Young, Detmer, Bosco and Beck or Sark in that order.

[JohnnyLingo]

The Beck love is something I have never gotten. Even when he was in the first third of his senior year which he sucked he had massive amounts of defenders.

He was effectively crippled early in that season.

He dismantled TCU's defense.

He threw for four touchdowns against (and beat) Utah despite a horrendous performance by his defense.

He rolled Oregon in the Vegas Bowl.... oh, now I see why you're so down on Beck.

Never mind, continue hating.

[jay santos]

On Hall vs Beck it's a strange comparison.

Beck's senior season (after the first two games), was by far better than anything Hall ever approached.

The rest of Beck's career was awful.

So Hall wins in the career comparison, but it's hard to put him too far ahead of Beck because Beck was clearly the better QB comparing just their prime.

[JohnnyLingo]

On Hall vs Beck it's a strange comparison.

Beck's senior season (after the first two games), was by far better than anything Hall ever approached.

The rest of Beck's career was awful.

So Hall wins in the career comparison, but it's hard to put him too far ahead of Beck because Beck was clearly the better QB comparing just their prime.

Hall benefited greatly from low scoring outputs from certain opponents. Utah scored 10 in 2007. TCU scored only 22 in 2007. UCLA scored 16 in the bowl that year. In 2008, those three games (TCU, Utah, Bowl) featured much higher scoring outputs from BYU's opponent and Hall lost them. And in 2009, Oklahoma scored only 14 and Utah only 20 in regulation for those wins.

The only games Hall won where the defense gave up 30+ were UNLV and Colorado State in 2008.

[YOhio]

The Beck love is something I have never gotten. Even when he was in the first third of his senior year which he sucked he had massive amounts of defenders.

It's a Beck thing. You wouldn't understand.

[Moliere]

The Beck love is something I have never gotten. Even when he was in the first third of his senior year which he sucked he had massive amounts of defenders.

Beck was there to pull BYU football out of the depths into which it had fallen. Granted it could have been any QB, but it happened to be Beck. He stuck it out and eventually went on to have a very good senior season.

That and the fact he tore up TCU and his pass to Harline was something you only read in fairy tales puts him high in my book.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Beck was there to pull BYU football out of the depths into which it had fallen. Granted it could have been any QB, but it happened to be Beck. He stuck it out and eventually went on to have a very good senior season.

That and the fact he tore up TCU and his pass to Harline was something you only read in fairy tales puts him high in my book.

Doman and Beck will always be more beloved by fans than Hall more because of the peculiar times they starred for BYU than their actual stats (which aren't bad and Beck's senior season especially compares favorably to anything Hall did). Doman won LaVell's last game on a miracle 4 and 13, and then beat Utah again the following year. He also stuck it out, got hosed all the way until the end of his junior year and I think finished around 14-2 as a starter. Beck was there when the program became relevant again and participated in the single greatest play in the history of the BYU v. Utah rivalry. No edition of the Utah v. BYU series will ever top the 2006 Utah game with BYU fans (well, unless you're a person that likes seeing BYU blow out Utah, which doesn't happen very much anymore).

[Goatnapper'96]

Beck was there to pull BYU football out of the depths into which it had fallen. Granted it could have been any QB, but it happened to be Beck. He stuck it out and eventually went on to have a very good senior season.

That and the fact he tore up TCU and his pass to Harline was something you only read in fairy tales puts him high in my book.

The Shawshank Redemption angle aside, it was also that the kid wanted to be a great BYU qb so badly. For a while he needed ritalin, but by the time his mental skills caught his physical skills and he he had a great supporting cast good things happened.

Both were great college qbs but the emotional appeal of Beck's finish was great. Even Hall's final win over Utah, he stunk. He was nails when it counted but I am not sure Beck had as poor a performance as Hall did against Utah beyond Beck's freshman year.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

He was effectively crippled early in that season.

He dismantled TCU's defense.

He threw for four touchdowns against (and beat) Utah despite a horrendous performance by his defense.

He rolled Oregon in the Vegas Bowl.... oh, now I see why you're so down on Beck.

Never mind, continue hating.

You use 3 games to justify greatness. Especially when in the first game of the year, against a team that didn't go to a bowl he sucked. Yeah it was all because of his performance against Oregon. What color was I wearing at the Vegas Bowl that year?

You and YOhio need to make out.

[YOhio]

You use 3 games to justify greatness. Especially when in the first game of the year, against a team that didn't go to a bowl he sucked. Yeah it was all because of his performance against Oregon. What color was I wearing at the Vegas Bowl that year?

You and YOhio need to make out.

Nobody gives a shit what you think about John Beck. Nobody.

[falafel]

What color was I wearing at the Vegas Bowl that year?

Red.